Jazz Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 freddie is petrified of fireworks and we had no sleep for months, and tryed everything he now has 'acp' people say its bad, but it calms him right down. he goes out for a wee, eats, but doesnt bother with the noise. They are cheap from the vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple_mog Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Apologies for contradicting you Jazz, but ACP does not 'calm' them down, its a basic muscle relaxant which appears to leave the brain fully functioning and worrying. If you have given enough and the dog is not completely phobic then the drug takes over and forces them to stay in one place. However more informed vets would not prescribe ACP as the dog is still likely to be very anxious and forming anxiety memories. British Small Animal Veterinary Association position statement Acepromazine (ACP) ACP has, in the past, been used as a short-term tranquilliser during phobic events. However, it does not have anxiolytic properties and will therefore not alter the impact of an event unless the animal is rendered unconscious thoughout it. It is believed that immobilising an animal whilst leaving it aware of, and emotionally responsive, to a phobic event may intensify the experience and lead to worsening of phobia in the future. Oral dosing produces unreliable effects, and onset of action may vary between 15 and 60 minutes (BSAVA Formulary). High doses may be required in order to sedate a dog during a phobic event. High doses may lead to hypovolaemia, hyperexcitability and extrapyramidal side effects in some animals (BSAVA Formulary). For these reasons ACP is not considered suitable for the management of canine noise phobias. and a re-post of some info I added to KathyM's thread in case it helps What I've found really helpful for him has been working through the relaxation protocol (can email you a copy) teaching a 'relax' cue TTouch and massage sessions (from me) individualised homeopathy Valerian tincture (to begin with we used this twice daily in his food for about 6 months then weaned him off) Valium given in small doses to block memory formation when something really scary happens like a huge set of fireworks or a thunderstorm What didn't help us DAP of any kind skullcap/valerian tablets CSJ calm down herbs other 'generic' anti-anxiety stuff t-shirts or wraps ignoring him! I think its worth emphasising that for Finn his nervousness/anxiety/stress was very strong and involved physiological reactions like constant pacing, panting, staring, drooling etc. The specialist we spoke to felt that the stuff that had not worked for us was simply not strong enough to get through to his system. Personally if your dog is this scared I would only walk her when its daylight and early enough there won't be any fireworks. Walk her on a harness AND flat collar (martingale type prevents escape without tightening too much). It really depends on the strength of the reaction, but until this year there would have been no point keeping Finn in the scary location as he would not have come out of the panic state. This year though that has been possible and we can now stay out and play ball - its taken 5 years to get this far though! Since things have started going off its really much to late to start desensitising - I'd download the mp3 file and save it for after the fireworks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sproggie14 Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Provided the air gun gas is at a high level of compression, its the quickest and cleanest way to kill a pigeon. I wish this was always true. They seem to use this method at the train stations round our way. I fairly regularly pick up pigeons with wings half blown off. It takes probably a week to 10 days for them to die of starvation and infection. Apologies for contradicting you Jazz, but ACP does not 'calm' them down, its a basic muscle relaxant which appears to leave the brain fully functioning and worrying. If you have given enough and the dog is not completely phobic then the drug takes over and forces them to stay in one place. However more informed vets would not prescribe ACP as the dog is still likely to be very anxious and forming anxiety memories. Agreed. I had ACP once for a firework phobic dog. All it did was make it harder for him to move. He was twice as scared as he also had to worry about why he couldn't control his body. It was awful to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I wish this was always true. They seem to use this method at the train stations round our way. I fairly regularly pick up pigeons with wings half blown off. It takes probably a week to 10 days for them to die of starvation and infection. The chap that did the ones at runcorn stations used a springer spaniel to to fetch them as they dropped and he made sure they were dead. Simple and effective and none of the birds had to take a long time to die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sproggie14 Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Well, that's reassuring. But better if they use effective non lethal methods. Killing individual birds will never solve the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Well, that's reassuring. But better if they use effective non lethal methods. Killing individual birds will never solve the problem Im in no way condoning the killing of the pigeons. I was so sad a few weeks back to wander round trafalgar square and no be able to re live my childhood fun of feeding them. The guy with the gun and the springer also flys several hawks and tried to persuade virgin trains to let him use his birds to scare theirs but they had several hundred pigeons roosting in the car park crapping on cars and customers and wanted the numbers down instantly ACP - horrible drug. We have had customers use it on dogs before they get groomed because of their agression and in the long term it just makes them worse and more resiliant to the stuff. When we get customers asking about using drugs to calm their dogs, ie those nervous in kennels or bothered by fireworks, we much prefer them to use valium if they must use tablets. Sometimes the stress dogs can feel in a kennels isnt going to be soothed by a DAP collar and valium helps chill them out a little without rendering them useless physically while mentally wide awake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I wouldn't use ACP on Sno either, having read similar info to what Mog has posted. I use various things for him - I do think Scullcap & Valerian has helped him so he has that on a regular basis and I have upped his dose over the last few weeks ready for fireworks time. We've also used homeopathy, tshirts, TTouch (touches and the body wraps) and of course Reiki. I have also found that getting some tasty food ready (tuna cake last year) and doing a little basic training with him helps take his mind off things and recently read a post on here supporting that, which was interesting. He has a crate that he uses on a regular basis, which is wedged in a corner he chose and covered over so it's a real den, but he doesn't necesssarily head that way if he's really scared. I ignore the people that say to ignore him as really when a dog gets so freaked out as he can, you can't ignore him and at times it would be dangerous to do so when he's likely to hurt himself. Finally, I decided previously that my being as relaxed as possible will help him and even though fireworks don't bother me, I am sure I must give off some stress because I am worried about him (and he's unfortunately VERY good at picking up on my worries) so I have a little drink or two to relax me too. On walks I am always watching him anyway as he has a habit of diving in fox poo if he can bless him, but am aware that fireworks can go off even in daylight, though we are more fortunate than most in that respect around here I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura_E Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Sorry to seem really ignorant here, but quite a few people have suggested t-shirts and I was just wondering how they help? I know I'm probably missing a trick here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple_mog Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Sorry to seem really ignorant here, but quite a few people have suggested t-shirts and I was just wondering how they help? I know I'm probably missing a trick here! Using t-shirts is an idea taken from TTouch where body wraps (light bandages) are sometimes used to give the dog a sensation of comfort and also to encourage awareness of their body rather than being all "in the head" with anxiety as it were. Using a tight fitting t-shirt can have the same effect for some dogs, but it really depends on the level of fear? For example t-shirts and little bits of training work well for Sno, and now they might for Finn, but a couple of years ago I'd consider it a minor miracle if he wasn't throwing himself under the nearest bit of furniture at which stage those things were too gentle to penetrate his fears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 For example t-shirts and little bits of training work well for Sno, and now they might for Finn, but a couple of years ago I'd consider it a minor miracle if he wasn't throwing himself under the nearest bit of furniture at which stage those things were too gentle to penetrate his fears. Actually Sno gets absolutely terrified, I was just listing the things I think help him in case they were helpful to anyone else We have been through many times of him trying to climb into all sorts of daft places in blind panic But I do believe the things I have mentioned have helped him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple_mog Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Actually Sno gets absolutely terrified, I was just listing the things I think help him in case they were helpful to anyone else We have been through many times of him trying to climb into all sorts of daft places in blind panic But I do believe the things I have mentioned have helped him. Sorry for assuming too much Ange oops just thinking back to when Finn was really bad and there's just no way I could have done anything as 'active' as treats/training? sorry again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 No need to apologise I was trying to offer possible solutions for others so possibly didn't make the severity of his fear clear. I feel for any animal (and their people) at this time of year as it is horrid to see them so scared. He does have times of nothing being able to "reach" him, at which point I generally hold him, but I think we have made progress each year if I look back. I do think his "recovery time" has improved quite considerably since we adopted him, in terms of fireworks, stuff out on walks etc. and he has definitely gained in confidence over the years which is wonderful, though he will never be the "dog you can take everywhere", bless him. He's very happy with his quiet life I hate seeing him so frightened, I have heard of dogs fitting in fear of fireworks and I can fully see why it happens when they get so scared, it has been a worry of mine for him at times. I am very grateful to live here though because in comparison to others we seem to get off lightly. I'm really not sure what we would do if they were going off for weeks/months on end. It does make me think, if we ever move from here, he will have to be a serious consideration as to where we end up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura_E Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I hate seeing him so frightened, I have heard of dogs fitting in fear of fireworks and I can fully see why it happens when they get so scared, it has been a worry of mine for him at times. I am very grateful to live here though because in comparison to others we seem to get off lightly. I'm really not sure what we would do if they were going off for weeks/months on end. It does make me think, if we ever move from here, he will have to be a serious consideration as to where we end up! Where do you live? I think I need to move there! Tess is in a right state again this evening. We have had some really loud fireworks going off tonight and I fear that this is going to continue long into November. I know that I sound like a real kill joy, but why do people feel like it's necessary to drag these things out for so long? It used to be firework NIGHT, now it's a two month ritual of non-stop explosions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helly Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Ive had a lot of people booking their pets in for next week, starting wednesday thru to monday. I think being in the middle of fields gives the pets here a better chance of not hearing the ruddy explosions night after night. Last night I started the ritual of leaving all the radios on for the night. Next Thursday, probably thru to Monday, I will leave radios and lights on. They are not loud by any stretch here, but we can hear distance rumbles and bangs if everywhere is silent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Where do you live? I think I need to move there! Tess is in a right state again this evening. We have had some really loud fireworks going off tonight and I fear that this is going to continue long into November. I know that I sound like a real kill joy, but why do people feel like it's necessary to drag these things out for so long? It used to be firework NIGHT, now it's a two month ritual of non-stop explosions! In Wilts, but I think it's partly where we are now, as we lived about a five minute drive away in our last house and while I don't recall how bad fireworks were there as we didn't have Sno then, I suspect things would be much worse that way as there are so many houses and no fields nearby. Whereas here there are far less houses and plenty of fields, so aside from traffic it's pretty quiet. On the flip side there does tend to be a fair amount of shooting but thankfully nothing close enough to freak him out generally on walks. I also think last year's noise was possibly better than it had been and wondered if the recession was responsible for that, so I'm hoping it might be quieter again this year. We do certainly get a lot going off nearby for a few nights and then the rest get used up, but I know others face them for weeks and weeks on end I don't think you'll find many if any people disagreeing with you here Laura I think most people could accept a few nights a year at organised displays, for whatever celebration is taking place, it's the going on for days/weeks on end and never knowing when they're going off. I never take Sno out after dark and I try to get him out for toilets before it gets dark, but then you have to wait until it's really late for the next toilet break as I do worry how he'll be if one goes off really close by and he's outside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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