John Rogerson

[celeste]

Went to a John Rogerson seminar on Sunday on dog - dog aggression,very interesting and some unusual ideas that I'd never heard before, main one being he keeps any new dogs/pups separate from his existing dogs for six months when he first gets them ! and when he takes on a dog to dog aggression case he tells the owner to separate the resident dogs for 5-6 weeks, they must not even clap eyes on each other, he claims that 60% of the people who have phoned then don't need to employ him as the aggression has stopped . Really don't know what to make of all that, but he claims he never has a problem with aggression in any of his six dogs (lots of people could say the same who don't do the six month thing)very interesting theory but not for me, knowing my luck I'd end up with an even more aggressive dog

He also wasn't a fan of puppy socialisation classes, he argues (and I agree to a point) that the last thing a puppy needs is to be put in a class with a bunch of hooligan puppies that are way more fun to be with than the owner, what a puppy needs is careful introduction to an adult dog who will calmly ignore them.

One thing that I will do with Daisy and Spud though is a, no playing without a toy rule, I have thought for a while that part of Daisy's problem was Spud, although they get on very well and have never fought, Spud is a bit full on when he plays, and I think Daisy expects other dogs to be as rough as he is and becomes nervous, then aggressive.

He's coming up here again next year, I'll certainly be going again.

[blackmagic]

I know ine obedience trainer who doesn't let her puppies mix with her other dogs until they are six months old. They do see the others ( the dogs are kenneled in the garden-) but they are not allowed to play etc. , the pups play with her and are walked separately.

 

She does this so that the pup bonds with her, not one of the other dogs.

Edited July 21, 2009 by blackmagic

[celeste]

I know ine obedience trainer who doesn't let her puppies mix with her other dogs until they are six months old. They do see the others ( the dogs are kenneled in the garden-) but they are not allowed to play etc. , the pups play with her and are walked separately.

 

She does this so that the pup bonds with her, not one of the other dogs.

 

Thats pretty much what he say's, he doesn't want a dog thats more interested in other dogs than him, he does working trials so I guess thats why,I can see the logic behind it but a bit extreme for my taste.

[blackmagic]

Me too.

 

I competed in obedience, but my pups lived and played with the older dogs.

 

I did walk them separate once a day, and took them to training class on their own, once a week until they were about six months old. Competitive training was done separately at first, until pup knew what I wanted , but then was done with the older dog around, as a distraction.

 

The reward for working was to go and play with the other dog.

[celeste]

 

The reward for working was to go and play with the other dog.

 

That was his bug bear, it's what I've always done, but he wanted himself to be the reward, I just think a dog would miss out on a lot by not having a good play with another dog, the speed mine run at along side each other, I don't think there's any substitute for that, but I suppose he'd argue that they don't miss what they've never had

[blackmagic]

My working lines retriever was totally into me. She didn't play with other dogs, just totally blanked them if they approached her.

 

She was brought up and trained the same way as the rest. I think it was just her nature. She was a very gentle, submissive dog.

 

While I agree that it is not good to let puppies play unsupervised, I do think it is important for their socialisation. I would be worried the dog would be afraid/aggressive to other dogs if it didn't get to mix with others and learn to read /practice body language.

 

Isn't that what is blamed for problems later on - lack of socialisation.

 

Food for thought

[mum24dog]

TBH he gives me the impression of using his dogs as a tool for his own purposes rather than treating them as indiviuals and respecting them for what they are.

Also someone who isn't secure enough in his own ability to forge a bond with his dog without isolating it socially.

Sounds like his version of the Stockholm Syndrome where kidnap victims start to identify with their captors.

 

Pam

[celeste]

TBH he gives me the impression of using his dogs as a tool for his own purposes rather than treating them as indiviuals and respecting them for what they are.

Also someone who isn't secure enough in his own ability to forge a bond with his dog without isolating it socially.

Sounds like his version of the Stockholm Syndrome where kidnap victims start to identify with their captors.

 

Pam

 

Hmmm, you might have a point there, I only saw him the one day although it was a four day thing, two day working trial workshop and two days on dog aggression, dog to human and dog to dog, so I didn't get much of an impression as to how he treats his dogs, one of his dogs was there which was impeccably behaved,but didn't show the slightest flicker of interest in anyone, despite being walked past people for loo breaks.

[BillyMalc]

Hmmm, glad I read this, as somehow I ended up on Rogerson's website the other day, where it says something along the lines of "Rogerson does not need any introduction to anyone who knows anyting about dogs" Thought that that was a bit full of himself.

The more I've learned about dogs and training methods, the more I've become interested in all the different ways; there appear to be as many different methods as there are trainers - very confusing indeed!

From what I've learned so far I would agree with mum24dog though, re the "Stockholm Syndrome" and I would not feel at all comfortable subjecting my dogs to Rogerson's methods. IMHO if a dog trusts and respects you enough they will bond with and want to work for you, but it's up to you to earn that. Also, dogs are pack animals, and of course if the only form of companiionship and attention they get is from a human they will bond (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome). I am not at all comfortable with the idea of forcing a "bond" in that way though

[DanishPastry]

I've been on 2 JR workshops and have to say i was surprisingly unimpressed (considering his rep).

The group I went with also generally felt the same.

 

Some odd comments.

Such as: "whoever came up with the idea of using treats to train puppies was an idiot"

 

Just to add, he didnt say that in a rude obnoxious way, he was just being relaxed about his opinion.

Twas just the opinion i found odd, not the manner

 

Then an old terrier that was scared witless of grooming, and aggressive with it, so he tethered him to grooming table, so it couldnt bite him, just bite the brush.

Which it did constantly, at one point choking as he bit down hard on the bristles.

JR said this wasn't a problem, as he would give into the grooming, which, he, indeed did.

 

JR said you could smear peanut butter on the wall to distract him during the grooming.

 

When i replied the biting on the brush looked like it was painful, JR didnt agree.

 

And when I asked why dont you positively associate the grooming with treats, he said that would be wrong, as using food would make him aroused!

 

errr.....2 points there:

1) the dog couldnt have been more aroused (wildly attacking the brush snarling etc)!

2) so how come letting him eat peanut butter from a wall doesn't count as food that would arouse??

 

But therein lay my main rub with JR.

He fixes his seminars so either:

a) you arent allowed to ask very many questions

b) and if you do, you cannot finish asking them, which is why I didnt get the chance to counter back with points 1) & 2) above, as he closed me down quite sharply changing subject.

 

Mostly you literally have to sit there for hours and hours and hours on end listening to him talk and talk and talk and he tells you at the beginning of the day that's what he will make you do, and he makes no apology for this, as he has too much to tell you, and he doesn't really want you taking full break periods either.

 

By the end of the day our group were tired, stressed, frustrated, slumping in their chairs, holding their own heads up and had very sore bums!

WHOOPS!!! THAT WAS POSTED BY KRUSEWALKER ON DANISH LOGIN

Edited September 13, 2009 by DanishPastry

[gremlin22]

i think to some extent puppy socialisation classes can be a bit much for a pup.But not becuase of fears over bonding, i mean a class is once or maybe twice a week, i can understand concerns over bonding when it's 2 male littermates that the owners do very little with individually, but not when it's one lonely pup going to a class to learn how to act around other dogs, my only concern with some is when the really boistrous puppies are allowed to push around the more submissive ones, puppies are really sensitive and going through fear periods and i'd be a little worried that a bad run in with a bossy pup could be the start of a phobia. But if it's a well supervised class it shouldn't be an issue.

as for keeping dogs apart for 6 months it's a bit impractical for most of us who don't live in massive houses.i couldnt seperate my cats and dog so they never saw each other..let alone if i brought another dog in.

[DanishPastry]

but he claims he never has a problem with aggression in any of his six dogs (lots of people could say the same who don't do the six month thing)

 

That came up in my seminar a well

 

I just replied he wouldn't have a problem, as he is simply an experienced dog trainer, not a 'pet dog owner'

 

Which means his dogs just wouldnt play up in his environment, as he gives off a different vibe. And he actually trains them.

As Cesar would put it (his one useful phrase), 'calm assertive energy' (although i never used that phrase to JR at the time)

 

WHOOPS!!! THAT WAS POSTED BY KRUSEWALKER ON DANISH LOGIN

Edited September 14, 2009 by DanishPastry

[celeste]

 

 

Mostly you literally have to sit there for hours and hours and hours on end listening to him talk and talk and talk and he tells you at the beginning of the day that's what he will make you do, and he makes no apology for this, as he has too much to tell you, and he doesn't really want you taking full break periods either.

 

By the end of the day our group were tired, stressed, frustrated, slumping in their chairs, holding their own heads up and had very sore bums!

WHOOPS!!! THAT WAS POSTED BY KRUSEWALKER ON DANISH LOGIN

You made me snort my tea down the wrong hole !!!

 

He wasn't that keen on breaks at the one I saw either, which I found a tad irritating as people were constantly getting up to go to the loo, it's pretty unfair too.

 

I think he had some good methods in amongst all his wackier stuff, and he did say himself it was just his opinion, some of what he said has made me think,and I have become more assertive at protecting Daisy from dogs she's nervous about, so that was worth it in itself.

Next one's Nina Boderenko....I have very high hopes for this one.

[celeste]

One of my friends just got in touch with John via E Mail to ask about one of her three dogs who launches intermittent attacks on the other two dogs, John sent her loads of questions to answer and has been E mailing her all weekend, at no cost what so ever, he's suggested she may have a medical cause to her aggression and that she is checked out at the vets. Although I'm not his biggest fan I have to commend him on his willingness to help someone who just E mailed out of the blue, pretty decent of him.