Ian Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 It's just said on the news that his body is going on view at the Never Land ranch so his "fans" can say goodbye. How utterly ridiculous - where's the dignity in that? Just shows how the people around him, including his family, are intent on squeezing the last bit of publicity and fame out of him - no wonder he was strange! Whilst admittedly I wouldn't visit a celebrity corpse myself, personally I don't see viewing his body as being any different to what they did over Princess Dianna though I otherwise agree. I thought it so sad how his own father seemed to me to be more interested in "milking the event" than grieving for his own child. There's little wonder his ideas on how to relate to others seemed odd to many if this was the sort of example he had as a child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudi Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Whilst admittedly I wouldn't visit a celebrity corpse myself, personally I don't see viewing his body as being any different to what they did over Princess Dianna though I otherwise agree. I thought it so sad how his own father seemed to me to be more interested in "milking the event" than grieving for his own child. There's little wonder his ideas on how to relate to others seemed odd to many if this was the sort of example he had as a child I agree it is Princess Diana-ish - that too was a circus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carole Stitcher Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Only one detail stuck in my mind when the 'revelations' were made about the abuse perpetrated on Michael and the others by Joe Jackson. I think it was Latoyah (it was certainly one of the girls) who recounted the tale of going to the bathroom in the middle of the night and having to step over Michael's unconcious body, left lying in the hallway after a beating by his father. I think she said Michael was 9 or 10 at the time this happened. Even discounting the father, there was a mother and eight of his siblings, most older than him, living in the same house. Not one of them had the decency to as much as lift him onto his bed. I do understand that living with a violent abuser is difficult in the extreme, filled with irrational fear of the abuser, but faced with the fact that none of his family loved him enough to even show him basic care, I don't find it difficult to understand why he grew up unable to form adult relationships. IF he did as he was accused, even that doesn't excuse what he may have done, but given that his accusers come from obviously disfunctional families I think its possible that rather than having any sinister intent, he only wanted to show these kids the love he had never been shown as a child. Though a very clever man in many ways, I think on this particular issue he wasn't able to consider things rationally and determine that his behaviour towards them was not appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krusewalker Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 I started a thread just like this on another forum. I didnt even mention peadophilia, as i dont believe he was, albeit a bit dodgy. My thread was very reasonable, an open discussion on the issues of MJ's death, celebrity worship, and religious comparisons. It was all going nicely, good few interesting posts, also talking about Diana, Kurt Cobain, etc. Happens the forum owner is a MJ worshipper. As soon as he logged on, thread locked, hostile insults, even a written warning ! There really is something not quite right about these people MJ IS Jesus to them! What is scary is otherwise, in any other time of the day, they are very intelligent normal older people. Often even anti-religion! It would be a lot more understandable if it was teenage girl mania! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoebejo Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 I read yesterday that one of the fan sites claims that people have committed suicide because they can't live without him The site about his death being a hoax seems to be run by someone utterly convinced it's all some kind of stunt! Nutters, absolute nutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redditchlady Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 It's just said on the news that his body is going on view at the Never Land ranch so his "fans" can say goodbye. How utterly ridiculous - where's the dignity in that? Just shows how the people around him, including his family, are intent on squeezing the last bit of publicity and fame out of him - no wonder he was strange! It is awfully sad. I read yesterday that one of the fan sites claims that people have committed suicide because they can't live without him The site about his death being a hoax seems to be run by someone utterly convinced it's all some kind of stunt! Nutters, absolute nutters. Exactly. There are some sad losers out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melp Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Even discounting the father, there was a mother and eight of his siblings, most older than him, living in the same house. Not one of them had the decency to as much as lift him onto his bed. I do understand that living with a violent abuser is difficult in the extreme, filled with irrational fear of the abuser, but faced with the fact that none of his family loved him enough to even show him basic care, I don't find it difficult to understand why he grew up unable to form adult relationships. Sorry Carole, have to disagree with you here. The fear you feel when you live with an abuser, whatever form the abuse takes is NOT irrational. Its very likely that the entire family feared the father and wouldn't have DARED put Michael into bed. It doesn't mean they didn't love him and I don't think its fair to make that assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carole Stitcher Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Sorry Carole, have to disagree with you here.The fear you feel when you live with an abuser, whatever form the abuse takes is NOT irrational. Its very likely that the entire family feared the father and wouldn't have DARED put Michael into bed. It doesn't mean they didn't love him and I don't think its fair to make that assumption. The fear is irrational, though that doesn't stop it being real. If you were walking down the street with eight of your friends and someone came towards you who had a history of violent behaviour you may be wary, but rational thinking would tell you that if he/she started something the nine of you working together would probably be able to physically overpower them. If they were also carrying a gun or axe or something of that nature then fear would be rational, because the balance of power would be theirs. Many years ago I had an abusive partner, so I am well aware of what it feels like and how difficult it is, but it is the abused persons fear of the abuser that gives them their power. I can assure you, though, that not even at my weakest point with that partner would I have allowed him to hurt a child, I'd have killed him first. When I heard Latoyah (I think) tell that story an image of a small boy lying unconcious in a hallway leapt into my mind and it is with me to this day. Every time he hit the headlines it always surged into my head. I really don't know why. I like a lot of his music, but wouldn't call myself a fan. Freddie Mercury was my tipple and I've always been a one man woman. I'm not making the assumption of lack of love based on that alone, but on the way they have acted over the years. The entire family, with perhaps the exception of Michael, have taken sibling rivalry to a level that is painful to see. A week before he died, Jermaine announced to the press that the Jacksons would be touring and Michael would be in the line up. The following day Michael said unequivocally that he would not. They didn't love him enough, but that's not really surprising as the were all subject to Joe Jackson's 'ministrations', though all those who spoke of the abuse said that Michael took the brunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melp Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 It is not irrational. It doesn't matter whether the abuser is carrying a weapon or not, the balance of power is always theirs simply because they are the abuser and you are the victim. If you have been abused regularly the fear of another beating or sexual encounter is very real because its happened before TO YOU. Its not a fear that it might happen, its a fear that it will, because its happened before. How can that be irrational? Its unfair to expect other members of the family to step in. They were children for goodness sake! As an adult you were in an abusive relationship and you may well have taken steps to stop your partner hurting a child, but many people don't and can't. Whilst I don't know anyhing about Michaels mother, she may also have been living in fear, she may also have been as bad as the father! As a child I watched my own sister being beaten and vice versa. Neither of us could have done a damn thing to help each other because the consequences would have been too great. We were CHILDREN just as the Jacksons were children. I am now 44 years old and have been away from that abuse for 27 years yet if I were to bump into my foster parents even now I would feel [and probably be] physically sick with fear. Now I will accept that my fear of them NOW is irrational. I'm an adult, physically and mentally stonger than they are and I KNOW they cannot hurt me or my family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carole Stitcher Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 In your case Mel, the fear was rational. You and your sister were children, in the power of adults who were abusive. You had neither the physical ability or the knowledge of what other steps you could take in order to stop the abuse. Michael Jackson was one of the youngest of the children. Some of the older ones were young men at the time, just look at the size of them compared to Michael in the video footage. From a very young age I have always stepped in, whatever the odds and risks, to protect others. That doesn't make me a hero, just too stupid to realise the danger I'm in. My first marriage lasted only two years and believe me, I knew a great deal of fear in those years. I ended it because in the last incident I totally lost it and had a blackout. When I came to, I was standing in the kitchen with a huge knife in my hand telling him if he took one more step towards me I would kill him. To be honest, had a child been involved in his violence, I doubt he'd have got the warning. Both of us knew I meant it, so it was definitely time he left. I guess I was more scared of going to prison than I was of him. That was the day I chose to stop being a victim. Has it left me with hang ups? Of course it has and I'm not at all surprised that your experience has left you with them, that the fear is still with you after all these years. I'm sorry that you and your sister went through that, it shouldn't happen, particularly when Social Services are involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kats n greys Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 I don't think any of us can say how anybody else could be expected to react in any situation (let alone an abusive one), if we all reacted the same there wouldn't be any hero's, any extraordinary acts of bravery, You wouldn't have adventurers, explorers etc, but we do because people are different. Some people hear a scream and run towards it to help, some will run away - most won't think rationally they will just act. You only have to look at the Stockholm Syndrome, rather than being "normal" and hating their kidnappers the victim becomes attached to their abductor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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