purple_mog Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 I thought I might as well start this thread in contro cause I feel it might end up in here anyway! I am NOT looking for an argument but wanted to clear some of my ignorance So: lots of rescues esp in Wales seem to offer ex-puppy farm dogs for sale. Either unwanted brood bitches and/or unwanted or imperfect pups. How do they come into possession of these dogs? As in does money exchange hands? Do the puppy farms offer unwanted dogs to rescue? And are these rescues in some way supporting the puppy farm industry by cleaning up their mess? I am very aware that without rescue being involved presumably many of these dogs would have been PTS or worse and am not ignoring that aspect, but I'd love to know what actually goes on. cheers Mog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtychicken Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 I think there's a bit of a problem with the definition of "puppy farm" as it gets bandied about a lot when people are actually referring to commercial breeders and, I feel, there's a big difference. IMHO, a genuine puppy farm is a place which deals with many breeds of dog at any given time, whereas a commercial breeder deals with just one or two breeds at a time. The rescues in Wales quite often end up with the outcasts from both but I think people see the term "ex-breeding bitch" and assume that she has come from a puppy farm - that's not always the case and the conditions in which they are initially kept vary greatly depending on the circumstances that they have come from. I think something else that needs to be borne in mind is that the rescues are dealing with dogs who are actually there and in need of help. Once you have been made aware of a dog's existence, you know that you are dealing with a living, breathing creature and turning it away isn't so easy. Most rescues are dealing with vast numbers of dogs and are nearly always operating at "full" so regularly turning dogs away, even before another flurry of dogs are offloaded by a breeder/farmer. Remember that a lot (most?) of the ex-breeders, failed breeders, sick puppies, unwanted puppies don't get the chance to find homes through rescue - they will either be pts at the vets or simply taken up the mountain and shot When the rescues know that those options are so easily available, does that make their decision to help or not any easier?? "Normal" owners with their variety of reasons for needing to rehome their dogs will have more options available as there will be many other rescues to approach. The breeders/farmers may make the effort to contact one rescue then pts if they say no However, if that rescue say yes then a tentative relationship is formed and the breeder/farmer is more likely to try the rescue route again. Some of the commercial breeders are actually being fairly responsible, I think, when you see their sick/"defective" puppies in rescue as they want them to have a chance of a life with the knowledge that they won't be bred from - a hypocritical clause that they can hardly include in their contracts, but the rescues can. I don't, in any way, shape or form, condone irresponsible, commercial breeding or puppy farming, nor do I think that it is right for rescues to buy dogs out of these situations (and it *does* happen), but I do know the emotional trauma so frequently involved in trying to help these dogs from the rescue's point of view On a more personal level, my Flora would appear to have originally come from a puppy farm/commercial breeding situation. I am sure that the conditions that she was kept in as a tiny puppy have contributed to some of the behaviour problems that she has now. Bran definitely came from a puppy farm/commercial breeding situation. His breeder wanted rid of him as he was the last pup in the litter and thankfully, his breeder started a chain of events that ended up with a whole bunch of wonderful rescue people getting him to safety before he came to me. Did they support the industry by cleaning up this mess? Far from it, I think. He was a 14 week old puppy. By going into rescue, his future is guaranteed and we can guarantee that he won't be responsible for any more puppies coming into this world. Had he been left with the breeder or picked up by anyone other than rescue, he could easily have ended up in a situation where he was used to sire litters - whether it be for the good old "just one litter" brigade or an indiscriminate breeder or a genuine puppy farm Which option was better? I'm sorry for the blathering, but I find this subject very emotional on many levels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtychicken Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 More to add, sorry Apparently, since rescues have become regularly involved in taking these dogs, the dogs are coming out aged approximately 4-6 years and are reasonably healthy (compared to historical cases) or with treatable conditions. Before the rescues were helping, the dogs were regularly being found as elderly dogs in very poor health, possibly just turned out and straying, or possibly killed in any number of appalling ways The relationship between rescues and the breeders/farmers also helps in a couple of other ways: most of those that choose to use the rescue route are becoming more and more open to education and are now keeping their dogs in better conditions and are worming/fleaing/vaxing; and with the rescues having access to the breeders/farmers, they can also provide honest information to those authorities who are trying to monitor breeding practices. So positive changes are being made. If these people aren't going to stop breeding, then at the very least they can be encouraged to become responsible, caring breeders until the day finally comes when they are forced to stop breeding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishPastry Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 Some of the commercial breeders are actually being fairly responsible, I think, when you see their sick/"defective" puppies in rescue as they want them to have a chance of a life with the knowledge that they won't be bred from - a hypocritical clause that they can hardly include in their contracts, but the rescues can. I don't agree with that at all. A breeder can include what he want in their contract. And if a puppy is not future breeding material, any responsible breeder should make sure that it will never be bred from. If they get rescue help because they feel there is a greater chance of the puppy getting into a knowledgeable home that way, fine, but if it was only to get it neutered "for free" then they are throwing away responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 I don't agree with that at all. A breeder can include what he want in their contract. And if a puppy is not future breeding material, any responsible breeder should make sure that it will never be bred from. If they get rescue help because they feel there is a greater chance of the puppy getting into a knowledgeable home that way, fine, but if it was only to get it neutered "for free" then they are throwing away responsibility. I agree a responsible breeder would do that Anne, but to my mind theres a of difference between a responsible breeder and a purely commercial breeder - one is driven by the desire to improve and maintain a breed the other is driven by the desire to make money from breeding and selling dogs. A responsible breeder wouldn't fear putting the no breeding clause in because in theory they would only be rehoming to vetted and knowlegeable homes that would understand the reason for keeping the bloodlines free from inherited traits etc and fully support it thus enhancing that breeders "reputation". However a commecial breeder isn't bothered by bloodlines per say, they care more about profit, so any "defective" pups are actually going to eat into that profit margin, especially since they will be aiming more for the unknowlegeable market or the ones who think any pedigree papers mean the dog is healthy etc. to the commercial breeder having the pup neutered wipes out any profit on that pup plus makes it less "saleable" and having a no nueter clause is pointless because it's never going to be enforced anyway (not even sure how you could enforce it tbh), not forgetting that a commercial breeder is probably breeding a lot more litters than a reputable breeder so it would show up dramatically in records if lots of their pups were going out with their papers marked not to be bred from (which of course would be a VERY good thing as far as I'm concerned but I can see why it wouldn't be thought of as good by a commercial enterprise). I completely agree it's a shameless and absolutely calculating way to get the rescues to pay for the nuetering of those pups - but - it's one of those really difficult ethical dilemas rescues have to make and each one will choose differently and I'm more than happy to allow them to be the ones to do it rather than me. I can quite see the argument that says that the "defective" breeder pup is equally as entitled to a long happy healthy non progeny producing life as any other dog in rescue - and after all if the breeder just turfs them out they'd hopefully end up in a rescue or pound anyway and having possibly impregnated several other dogs before being found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple_mog Posted November 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 More to add, sorry Apparently, since rescues have become regularly involved in taking these dogs, the dogs are coming out aged approximately 4-6 years and are reasonably healthy (compared to historical cases) or with treatable conditions. Before the rescues were helping, the dogs were regularly being found as elderly dogs in very poor health, possibly just turned out and straying, or possibly killed in any number of appalling ways The relationship between rescues and the breeders/farmers also helps in a couple of other ways: most of those that choose to use the rescue route are becoming more and more open to education and are now keeping their dogs in better conditions and are worming/fleaing/vaxing; and with the rescues having access to the breeders/farmers, they can also provide honest information to those authorities who are trying to monitor breeding practices. So positive changes are being made. If these people aren't going to stop breeding, then at the very least they can be encouraged to become responsible, caring breeders until the day finally comes when they are forced to stop breeding thank you dirty chook - that's exactly the kind of information that I was wondering about. I knew it wasn't a simple thing, life never is but wasn't sure about the relationship between rescues and puppy farms - thinking of commercial large/medium scale farmers if that makes sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishPastry Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 I completely agree it's a shameless and absolutely calculating way to get the rescues to pay for the nuetering of those pups - but - it's one of those really difficult ethical dilemas rescues have to make and each one will choose differently and I'm more than happy to allow them to be the ones to do it rather than me. I can quite see the argument that says that the "defective" breeder pup is equally as entitled to a long happy healthy non progeny producing life as any other dog in rescue - and after all if the breeder just turfs them out they'd hopefully end up in a rescue or pound anyway and having possibly impregnated several other dogs before being found. oh I don't disagree that the puppies should be rehomed via rescues if possible, I only disagreed with that one sentence I highlighted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eileen jones Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 We are a Welsh rescue and take a lot of ex puppy farm and ex breeding dogs. We also take puppies that have either failed to sell or have health issues. We never ever say no to these dogs as, has been said earlier, they would very likely end up dead. We don't pay for them and have only on one occasion handed money over for dogs and that was in a private home for two puppies that we could not turn our back on. The farmers who hand their dogs over are taking a risk. They don't have to do it and there is no commercial gain for them. Some farmers allow rescues on the farm and others meet at the side of the road or in laybys. There are farmers who have built a relationship with a rescue that will obtain dogs from other farmers for rehoming. These farmers often view dogs as another type of livestock and see nothing wrong in their methods. Considering the condition of some of the dogs when they come into rescue, what gives me nightmares are the ones who never come out. That are in farms that are unlicensed and who dispose of their dogs when they are no longer producing puppies or the litters are too small or the pups fade. We sometimes get flack for taking the dogs. If we don't they will die. The farmer will continue breeding and the dogs and pups will never have a chance of a home and love. The only thing that will stop it are changes to the law on breeding establishments and the sale of pups. In the meantime we do what we can in the background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nettie Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Its the same dilemma that greyhound rescues face, if we take in greyhounds from trainers are we supporting the industry? If we don't take in the dogs that need rescue space then the dog will more than likely face abandonment and/or death. If we stop taking in hounds its not going to stop the industry breeders from breeding more is it? Its not going to stop racing. Most of our hounds seem to come from the pounds but initially they've all be bred for the racing industry. So we do what we do and help where we can, even if it is only the tip of the iceberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trallwm farm Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 Yes some rescues do buy in puppies. They also keep the source to themselves so its obviously worth doing. There are fors and against but when its done simply as a money spinner then it doesnt sit easily with me. Look on websites and see pedigree puppies galore and see how much money is involved. Then look at all the other rescues who take all dogs regardless of age or breed and you see how they struggle to just help dogs for the right reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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