Following On From ....

[reds]

Hi Celeste

 

Don't think I've ever thought about this so much before!! At first I felt disillusionment again when I read your post because and this is going to sound seriously wacko and over-sentimental, but each animal that is killed I feel personal pain for. As most 'normal' people would over the thought of say, every pet animal that is abused when we hear about it. To me their lives have value beyond our 'use' of them regardless of how they came to be. But the second part of your post balanced me up again as it's something that I can understand. When you relate to hyenas hunting and other wild animals, my response obviously would be that humans don't need to eat other animals. We know enough and have established viable alternatives. We do not need to hunt others for our own survival. We are meant to be the 'higher' species after all ;). So that leads to where I get re-balanced, I can accept that people choose to eat meat. As I said at the start (a long time ago ), I respect others' choices and we are all free to make those choices whatever they may be. Better still if there is consideration of the life behind the menu. What I do and always will struggle with though is the thinking that animals are there solely for our benefit and that we have outright concesion and even a 'right' to take their lives for our own. Anyone who accepts that eating meat is their choice, just as not eating meat is my choice, then I lay down my sword (not that I ever had one like, don't want to get booted off for violence ). I do still maintain however that the choice to eat meat needs checking on every now and again, just as you do by way of CWF and as I guess, I would like to see, by limitation of the species we claim by knife.

 

End of record, you can take me off now

[cycas]

I am dubious about this matter of need and choice. I don't need to eat meat. I am a healthy fully grown adult who can digest pretty much any foodstuff, living in a rich, high-technology country. I can buy foodstuffs from anywhere in the world and eat whatever takes my fancy. For me, whatever I eat indeed is a choice.

 

However, I am really not convinced that this is the case for even the majority of the human population, or that this state of affairs is necessarily likely to continue. This is the first time I can think of in history that the choice has been available even this widely, and although it would be nice to think our civilisation will continue on an even keel, chances are it won't. Civilisations rarely do.

 

Even if you go back 50 years in this country, you enter an era when people are carrying out a lot more manual labour, have colder, damper housing and clothing, have less to spend on food and hugely less choice in what they ate. I suspect that they would have struggled to survive without rich sources of protein and fat.

 

There are plenty of people today who cannot properly digest soya, or nuts, or lentils. I am not sure those people have much choice either. A friend of mine is vegetarian, but has a young son with a range of allergies. She has, of course, put his welfare above her principles, and he eats meat. I am sure most parents would make the same choice.

[reds]

Absolutely Cycas, goes without saying.

[Terrier]

I think possibly Terrier and I are of a similar mind, to me the killing and eating of animals is acceptable because in nature everything is preyed on by something else, slaughter is not a pleasent process but neither is being hunted and killed by predetors, anyone who has watched programms about Hyenas will have seen how they dispatch their prey, it's quite often still alive whilst it's being eaten, so I don't understand why humans should'nt eat meat because an animal will feel fear, they do in the wild, a wild animal isn't going to think " oh well it's ok, it's a lion/hyena/wolf thats killing me" . I do completly respect anyone who is vegan and can understand why the thought of being responsible for the death of an animal just so they can eat meat is abhorent to them, I have vegan friends and if we are out for lunch I will eat veggie out of respect for their beliefs.

I too have vegan friends, but have no qualms about eating meat in front of them. Obviously if they were to come to my house for dinner then we'd serve a vegan meal, and I'd expect one at theirs.

 

I will often eat veggie if there isn't a high welfare meat option, irrespective of who I'm with.

 

What I do object to is the rearing, transport and inhuman handling that can occure, I am a member of Compassion in World Farming and take a real interest in where my meat comes from, I buy ethicaly and have stopped buying processed meats that can't be accounted for, which I think is a more realistic way of helping improve the welfare of farm animals.

 

Why is vegetarianism/veganism less realistic?

 

I realise that there are those who "could not (ie don't want to) give up meat" - it would be easier for them to switch to a higher welfare alternative.

 

For others though - they might equally see that "if I'm vegan - I'll know for certain that no low welfare food passes my lips".

 

Both involve a move away from the intensive farming of animals, so both help to improve the welfare of farm animals imo.

[Terrier]

Something else that has just occurred to me (wrt my last post - I'm too late to edit it).

 

One benefit of the term "vegan" being not just that it's easier for the vegan themselves to understand - but also for those providing food for them.

 

I have my beliefs, but as people see me eating meat - they don't necessarily realise what those beliefs are. So whilst I might never buy an intensively farmed Ross Cobb chicken, people who invite me around for dinner often do.

 

Had I been vegan, we'd be sat down to a meal that involved no intensive rearing of animals. In this, the convenience of the labels "vegan" and "vegetarian" are an advantage.

[cycas]

Had I been vegan, we'd be sat down to a meal that involved no intensive rearing of animals. In this, the convenience of the labels "vegan" and "vegetarian" are an advantage.

 

This is very true, and is one reason I too end up with the vegetarian option in restaurants and on planes - though I must say we are lucky down here in Devon/Cornwall in that respect, even pubs often sell local free range meat and will cheerfully tell you which farm it came from. Though of course there are still the remnant of the awful tourist caffs selling evil greasy Mystery Meat Sausages, though fewer of those nowadays.

 

One can of course ask about the origin of the food, which probably has some educational impact. (I seem to do this a lot in petshops and end up with some very odd looks directed at me).

[celeste]

 

 

 

Why is vegetarianism/veganism less realistic?

 

I realise that there are those who "could not (ie don't want to) give up meat" - it would be easier for them to switch to a higher welfare alternative.

 

For others though - they might equally see that "if I'm vegan - I'll know for certain that no low welfare food passes my lips".

 

Both involve a move away from the intensive farming of animals, so both help to improve the welfare of farm animals imo.

[/quote

 

My thinking is that the meat industry is never going to go away, there's to much money and jobs involved, so surely more change can be made from the inside, by tweaking peoples conscience and making them take a good look at where their meat comes from, the only way the meat industry will listen in mho is through consumer power, look at what happened at the beginning of the year with Hugh Fearnley Wotsisname, the sale of free range chooks went through the roof.

 

As to choosing not to eat meat, I have in the past been a vegetarian , for ten years, unfortunately I'm one of those who can't eat too much fiber, so I'm pretty limited to my food choices.

 

This might be slightly off topic but I had a huge argument with my friend last week about sending horses to slaughter, she is a horse owner and thinks it's acceptable for them to go to slaughter, I don't, my argument was that most of these horses have been cared for by people and trust them, to me it's a betrayal of trust to then send them off to slaughter when they become a burden, I felt it was the owners duty to have the horse put down in it's stable, she thought that unless I was a vegan then I had no business pointing the finger, I can see her point but to me two wrongs don't make a right, I don't think horses are any more precious than farm animals but most of them haven't come to look upon people as friends.

[Terrier]

You are making my brain ache Terrier

Tenacious little bugger, aren't I?

 

The same is true for my own brain. That said – I’m grateful. This debate is making me think too, which I consider to be a good thing. It’s helpful to me to understand the issues at play.

 

 

 

Too often, internet forum debates (on other forums) end up with people setting up in two “sides†and each side sniping at one another, trying to “winâ€. Here, we have reasoned debate where there appears to be mutual respect throughout. That respect means that the debate continues to be constructive, and we can learn something.

 

 

 

It makes a very refreshing change.

 

 

 

 

I respect your value and appreciation of the welfare of farmed animals. Something far far far too many people ignore for ease of purpose. I also find it a refreshing change to hear someone who has thought so much about their own practices. Just one question to your post before, you mentioned the pro's of pheasant shooting. What do you see the pros as being?

Yep, it’s only recently that I ignored* the issues too.

 

 

 

* To be fair – the word “ignore†is probably a little bit harsh. There are many things that we are brought up doing that we now do automatically, without thinking. Eating cheap meat without giving any thought to how the animal was raised is something that (sadly) most of us are brought up doing. Until we see a reason to change, we will carry on as before.

 

 

 

WRT pheasant shooting:

 

It’s a tough one to characterise, because it’s not quite farmed, and it’s not quite wild. That half and half, semi-wild status sets it apart from a lot of other species.

 

 

 

The start of their lives, they are subject to a breeding programme that ensures a high survival rate.

 

 

 

They are afforded the protection from disease, starvation and other predators that any farm animal has.

 

 

 

Admittedly, at first their lives start out fairly intensive, the issue of them being raised in crowded barns is a thorny one. But then they will get a couple of months of being raised free range before being given total freedom, but with the added benefit of having enough grain dispensers dotted about to ensure that starvation is not an issue.

 

 

 

The death that the pheasant has is usually by shotgun, comparable to the predation by other species. Although less efficient than many other farmed animals, it’s still better than that afforded to most wild animals. You might argue that it fears the gun, and I have to concede that point – but then it fears the more natural predator also. Whilst we are on to the starvation/disease then despatch by predator – how long must the animal suffer said disease or starvation before the predator “bites its head off� I suspect it is longer than the space of time between being hit by shotgun fire and being finished off by the human.

 

 

 

Whilst you could argue that the freedom that bird enjoys is only an illusion, it’s pretty real to the bird involved – and therefore no different as far as the pheasant is concerned. It certainly gets to exhibit the full range of its natural instincts.

 

 

 

It’s an alternative to chicken - and higher welfare than virtually all the chicken produced in this country (given the popularity of chicken in the UK, that benefit should not be understated).

 

 

 

Compare the life of the pheasant with the wild animal – the survival rates to adulthood are – I believe (and I’m open to correction on this) – higher than most wild species.

 

 

 

It gives us an opportunity to kill our own meat. Or more to the point – to take responsibility for the animal that ends up on our plate, rather than hide behind the plastic wrap fairy (who of course, produces all the meat in the supermarket – it was never really a living creature, was it?).

 

As I’ve said before, the perceived “distance†between the animal and the way it lived its (usually miserable) life and the shrink-wrapped product with that appealing phrase “Buy-one-get-one-freeâ€, makes it easy for people to forget the responsibility that *should* go hand-in-hand with eating the flesh of another animal.

 

 

 

Pheasant shooting requires land management. The management of the woodlands, wetlands, rough pasture and hedgerows provides an ideal habitat for many other species of flora and fauna.

 

 

 

It adds value (economic AND intrinsic) to the countryside. As human population grows, there is increased pressure to build more houses, schools, hospitals, prisons etc. I realise that there are brown field sites that will be built on first, and that green belt is protected, but how long before the pressure to house people overtakes the pressure to preserve our countryside? A long time, perhaps – but for me there is too little interest in preserving our countryside as it is. Anything that supports that is a plus point for me. Paranoid? Maybe. Lack of faith in the government, and of the mostly city-based voting public to protect this resource that we so rely upon? Certainly.

 

 

 

Low food miles. The pheasants I buy have not travelled half way around the world, using up fuel resources and polluting the atmosphere. As fuel resources deplete (not forgetting those greenhouse gases) there are more and more reasons to source locally. Pheasants are one such food that we can do very well in this country.

 

Where our views will always clash, now that I understand your perspective, is in the killing of the animal. To me I see something beautiful and the thought of ending their life just so that I can eat them bounces of my brain and shoots right out again - I cannot digest that thought or resonate with it at all. I just could never take their life. That is seperate to my objection to the way they are slaughtered. I honestly do not comprehend how you can cut the killing out of the equation. That makes life sound so disposable and the slaughter is imposing suffering, which cannot be reduced any lower to exactly that - suffering.

As I said, that their life will end is unavoidable. Killing is taken out of the equation because no animal is immortal. Although ending a life, if the animal is farmed (or semi-wild, eg pheasants), that life is also created. When shortening the life of a wild animal, you are leaving resources available to other members of that species (and others) thus extending the lives of other wild creatures. The only way that overall levels of life are reduced is when vital resources are taken away.

 

 

 

All we can do is whatever we can to minimise suffering wherever possible (I’m not sure that shortening a life is in and of itself creating suffering). That might be by distancing yourself from all interaction with animal food products in order to be sure not to contribute to the inherent suffering involved in intensive farming, or it might be by attempt to support improvements in welfare wrt the meat that is eaten (but then accepting that some lower welfare food might slip through the net).

 

 

How are we 'sharing'? They are created to suit our needs, kept on the whole to suit our needs and their life ended to suit our needs. When do they get to share?

 

Well, we are sharing in the sense that we are all on the same planet!

 

 

 

Those animals are kept on the whole to suit our needs – of that I am in no doubt, but then how avoidable is that? Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of it, we *are* the dominant species on this planet. There is barely any part of this earth that has not either been interfered with to suit our ends, or left as it is by deliberate act.

 

 

 

We can be seen to be sharing if *both* species benefit from the interaction. By giving them a better life than they would otherwise have had in the wild (and for this – sproggie14’s “soul†perspective – April 23^rd, 10:42 - has great relevance), the animal benefits. Our benefit comes in the form of a tasty meal.

 

 

 

Perhaps it’s an unequal balance, and I don’t doubt that the human benefits from the interaction more than the other animal does, but if it’s done properly (and I concede that it often isn’t) then both benefit from the interaction nonetheless.

 

 

 

How can you respect a living being you are content to kill?

 

Funny how people see things so differently to each other.

I’d put it another way. How can you *NOT* respect it?

 

 

For a species (ie humans) that places so much value on life, taking responsibility for the life of another creature is a big thing.

 

 

It seems from speaking to those who produce their own meat, that they have a hell of a lot more respect for the animals that give them their meal, than the casual supermarket shopper.

[Terrier]

Why is vegetarianism/veganism less realistic?

 

I realise that there are those who "could not (ie don't want to) give up meat" - it would be easier for them to switch to a higher welfare alternative.

 

For others though - they might equally see that "if I'm vegan - I'll know for certain that no low welfare food passes my lips".

 

Both involve a move away from the intensive farming of animals, so both help to improve the welfare of farm animals imo.

 

My thinking is that the meat industry is never going to go away, there's to much money and jobs involved, so surely more change can be made from the inside, by tweaking peoples conscience and making them take a good look at where their meat comes from, the only way the meat industry will listen in mho is through consumer power, look at what happened at the beginning of the year with Hugh Fearnley Wotsisname, the sale of free range chooks went through the roof.

Whittingstall. That man is truly inspirational.

 

I would highly recommend "The River Cottage Meat Book". Much more than just a recipe book, it goes into all sorts of things - not least the welfare of the animals that reach our plates.

[melissa]

I think the thread has raised a lot of valid & different view points, been interesting to read. As I have said deciding not to eat animals is a personal choice for me,I have never eaten meat not even as a child, it was not difficult for me as soon as I knew what it was I wouldn't eat it.I didn't bring my daughter up as a vegetarian and I have always fed my dogs meat, I believe in freedom of choice.

I have been a vegan, but did become ill largely because I cannot eat all the soya products that look like meat and admit I didn't eat properley. In my opinion I also feel that to live a true Vegan lifestyle is pretty impossible in todays society - there are so many animal products in foods, silk, leather,wool, in everyday objects, the list is endless, I do admire anyone who tries, though it can be very difficult at times

 

I don't actually think people will always eat meat, in the past we as a nation have felt it acceptable to do lots of things that we now realise aren't right, things move on I doubt it will happen in my lifetime but I think one day it will be seen as wrong by the majority not the minority to eat animals. Again just my viewpoint

[Kathyw]

I have been offline for almost two weeks and have not the stamina to read all the posts I have missed but two things I need to say.

 

In the news this week was the subject of how much food is wasted, just thrown away every week in England alone.

 

Over 5000, yes five thousand chickens, still in their supermarket wrapping chucked into a bin.

5000 lives that were probably not lived in nice conditions anyway, lost for no reason at all.

No-one got sustainance from them - they were reared and died for nothing.

This made me weep.

 

I was born over 60 years ago and couldn't eat meat (Mum couldn't eat it when she was carrying me). There were no special vegetarian foods available. No Tofu, soya etc.

I ate the same as everyone else in the family - just no meat on my plate. Lots of veg and fruit though.

The only thing I 'suffered' from was being skinny - like a shilling rabbit was a term used for me.

I rarely got sick, had more energy than most of my friends and have always had spot free skin.

 

I had a few ops on my throat as a child, I had a deep husky voice and they wanted to find out why and the docs were always amazed that I didn't eat meat yet was so healthy.

I still have the same meals as anyone else - just no meat. Tis sooooo easy to feed me and cheap - so people say.

[sproggie14]

In the news this week was the subject of how much food is wasted, just thrown away every week in England alone.

 

Over 5000, yes five thousand chickens, still in their supermarket wrapping chucked into a bin.

5000 lives that were probably not lived in nice conditions anyway, lost for no reason at all.

No-one got sustainance from them - they were reared and died for nothing.

This made me weep.

 

Me too

[Terrier]

Me too

 

Horrible, isn't it?

[MissMagic]

Just to throw another bone into the works, I notice most of you are eating soya products. Soya products are "unethical" too as mass farming of soya is resulting in people chopping down more rainforest to make room to grow more and local peoples and animals starving to death because there is no food for them growing.

 

Sometimes you're stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea and have to choose which "unethical" practice you hate the least.

[mooandboo]

Just to throw another bone into the works, I notice most of you are eating soya products. Soya products are "unethical" too as mass farming of soya is resulting in people chopping down more rainforest to make room to grow more and local peoples and animals starving to death because there is no food for them growing.

 

Sometimes you're stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea and have to choose which "unethical" practice you hate the least.

Most of the soya grown in this way is grown to for animal feed. Most soya products for human consumption are from sustainable sources against the former methods of farming.

 

For instance: Alpro soya

Edited May 12, 2008 by mooandboo