Following On From ....

[taylor]

Im not posting this to put the cat amongst the pigeons so to speak, I just wanted to know how dairy farming can be tolerated by anyone with a conscience when this happens

 

Beware its harrowing

 

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?vi...l&Player=wm

[Brenda]

Couldn't access the link, probabaly just as well as I was dreading watching it. I've heard about what happens and is the reason I now have soya milk, yogurts and today bought some vegan spread! Small steps I know.

[Rachel Rumpelstiltskin]

I find peta very extremist. Having worked on a dairy farm and met other local farmers i can tell you that i never once saw anything like that. Yes the young male calves were sold for veal but it is in the interest of the buyer for the calves to be in good condition as the quality of veal is better. The cows who were milked on a twice daily loved it. Im really not lying here they were queing to get into the cattle sheds. There was lots of human interaction and every time they came in all the cows were checked over for health problems etc etc etc.

 

Yes there are bad places where you will see this but there are also very good farmers out there who love and care for their animals.

[BillyMalc]

I find peta very extremist. Having worked on a dairy farm and met other local farmers i can tell you that i never once saw anything like that. Yes the young male calves were sold for veal but it is in the interest of the buyer for the calves to be in good condition as the quality of veal is better. The cows who were milked on a twice daily loved it. Im really not lying here they were queing to get into the cattle sheds. There was lots of human interaction and every time they came in all the cows were checked over for health problems etc etc etc.

 

Yes there are bad places where you will see this but there are also very good farmers out there who love and care for their animals.

 

I couldn't access the link either, maybe you have to register ffirst or something?

 

Any case, I don't agree with the above "it is in the interest of the buyer for the calves to be in good condition as the quality of veal is better". In many European countries - where these calves might well end up - veal crates are still common practice. These crates are nothing more than wooden boxes which are so narrow that the poor things can't even turn round in them. They're locked up in these vile contraptions till their day of slaughter comes when they are 6 months old. During this time they get fed iron deficient food - stuffed with antibiotics - so that they develop anaemia, because the consumer likes their veal to be white. Maybe their flesh is in good condition, but I am sure the calves in themselves are not

 

I can believe that dairy cows can't wait to get milked; the strain of having to carry 5 gallon sized udders about must be enormous. Cows were never meant to be carriers of human food throughout their lives, their uddrs were meant to carry enough food for a baby cow, not for earning someone their living

 

At the end of the day, these animals are there to be made money out of, and even if some might treat their animals better than others while they are at it, it is the money that will always be the deciding factor whenever decisions are being made about a cow's welfare.

[Helly]

i worked on a farm for many years and our cows were very well looked after, had the best of everything but were bred for meat not milk. As in all areas of life there is good and bad but yes the cows welfare whether it be for beef or milk is at the end of the day going to turn into an income for the farmer. I run a kennels, and while i do my best and more to make sure my boarders are well fed and happy and kept clean, Im still doing my job to provide an income for myself at the end of the day. I cant really slag off farmers for making a profit out of their cows as long as the cows are happy before they go for slaughter.

[Rachel Rumpelstiltskin]

I couldn't access the link either, maybe you have to register ffirst or something?

 

Any case, I don't agree with the above "it is in the interest of the buyer for the calves to be in good condition as the quality of veal is better". In many European countries - where these calves might well end up - veal crates are still common practice. These crates are nothing more than wooden boxes which are so narrow that the poor things can't even turn round in them. They're locked up in these vile contraptions till their day of slaughter comes when they are 6 months old. During this time they get fed iron deficient food - stuffed with antibiotics - so that they develop anaemia, because the consumer likes their veal to be white. Maybe their flesh is in good condition, but I am sure the calves in themselves are not

 

I can believe that dairy cows can't wait to get milked; the strain of having to carry 5 gallon sized udders about must be enormous. Cows were never meant to be carriers of human food throughout their lives, their uddrs were meant to carry enough food for a baby cow, not for earning someone their living

 

At the end of the day, these animals are there to be made money out of, and even if some might treat their animals better than others while they are at it, it is the money that will always be the deciding factor whenever decisions are being made about a cow's welfare.

 

You cant generalise and say that the entire meat industry is like that. Yes some of it is shite but there are some good decent farmers out there who believe in the welfare of the animal, and dont stuff them into crates etc etc etc. If you go to a local farmer who supplies the local butchers the quality of care and attention to welfare is totally different to that of a farmer who supplies nationally if not internationally on a much larger scale.

 

Each and every farmer is different

[taylor]

I lived on a dairy farm for over a year, and yes the cows were loved there to. But that doesnt remove the fact that they were used for our benefit. using their bodies purely to benefit us.

 

The videos that I watched that caused my personal decision to change diet may have been extreme in some views but it happens daily and how can anyone really be sure that the milk and cheese sitting on the shelves in supermarkets has come from "happy Daisy" with the milkmaid sitting on the 3 pronged stool. or the exhausted commercially farmed mother cow who after producing calves for veal crates all her short life is having to be buldozed to slaughter because she cannot get to her feet.

[BillyMalc]

i worked on a farm for many years and our cows were very well looked after, had the best of everything but were bred for meat not milk. As in all areas of life there is good and bad but yes the cows welfare whether it be for beef or milk is at the end of the day going to turn into an income for the farmer. I run a kennels, and while i do my best and more to make sure my boarders are well fed and happy and kept clean, Im still doing my job to provide an income for myself at the end of the day. I cant really slag off farmers for making a profit out of their cows as long as the cows are happy before they go for slaughter.

 

The difference between your kennels and a dairy farm being that providing welfare is your livelyhood, that of the farmer is providing food. It doesn't matter to your livelyhood whether the animal is young, healthy and well bred or an old codger with one eye and wonky legs. If anything the latter will receive a bit more TLC, whereas on a farm that animal would long have been sent off to slaughter - which is a vast difference from the vet coming out and carefully putting Fido to sleep in the comfort of his own home. I've worked at a riding stables and I've seen it happen first hand: horses were well cared for as long as they made money, but as soon as they started to cost money it was a single trip down the road for them.

 

You cant generalise and say that the entire meat industry is like that. Yes some of it is shite but there are some good decent farmers out there who believe in the welfare of the animal, and dont stuff them into crates etc etc etc. If you go to a local farmer who supplies the local butchers the quality of care and attention to welfare is totally different to that of a farmer who supplies nationally if not internationally on a much larger scale.

 

Each and every farmer is different

 

It still remains a fact though that in order for a cow to provide milk she has to be pregnant pretty much all of the time, and the male calves are mostly surplus to requirement. They are taken away rom their mothers when they are a few days old at most, and once the farmer has sold them he has got no more say over what happens to them. So however good the farmer is to his herd, their calves might well end up abroad in veal crates, and I very much doubt that any farmer would refuse to sell their calves because of it.

I'm sure that there are a few "decent" puppy farmers as well. Still doesn't alter my stance on puppy farms either.

[scotslass]

I find peta very extremist. Having worked on a dairy farm and met other local farmers i can tell you that i never once saw anything like that. Yes the young male calves were sold for veal but it is in the interest of the buyer for the calves to be in good condition as the quality of veal is better. The cows who were milked on a twice daily loved it. Im really not lying here they were queing to get into the cattle sheds. There was lots of human interaction and every time they came in all the cows were checked over for health problems etc etc etc.

 

Yes there are bad places where you will see this but there are also very good farmers out there who love and care for their animals.

 

I don't think you can base your opinion of farming on one or two farmers you happen to know. Most farmers do not "love" their animals in any sense that I'd understand - they are a commodity, pure and simple. Cows queue up, as BillyMalc says, because they are in agony from the weight of their over-full udders and desperate to have the pain relieved by milking.

 

 

I couldn't access the link either, maybe you have to register ffirst or something?

 

Any case, I don't agree with the above "it is in the interest of the buyer for the calves to be in good condition as the quality of veal is better". In many European countries - where these calves might well end up - veal crates are still common practice. These crates are nothing more than wooden boxes which are so narrow that the poor things can't even turn round in them. They're locked up in these vile contraptions till their day of slaughter comes when they are 6 months old. During this time they get fed iron deficient food - stuffed with antibiotics - so that they develop anaemia, because the consumer likes their veal to be white. Maybe their flesh is in good condition, but I am sure the calves in themselves are not

 

I can believe that dairy cows can't wait to get milked; the strain of having to carry 5 gallon sized udders about must be enormous. Cows were never meant to be carriers of human food throughout their lives, their uddrs were meant to carry enough food for a baby cow, not for earning someone their living

 

At the end of the day, these animals are there to be made money out of, and even if some might treat their animals better than others while they are at it, it is the money that will always be the deciding factor whenever decisions are being made about a cow's welfare.

 

I agree with all of this.

 

 

i worked on a farm for many years and our cows were very well looked after, had the best of everything but were bred for meat not milk. As in all areas of life there is good and bad but yes the cows welfare whether it be for beef or milk is at the end of the day going to turn into an income for the farmer. I run a kennels, and while i do my best and more to make sure my boarders are well fed and happy and kept clean, Im still doing my job to provide an income for myself at the end of the day. I cant really slag off farmers for making a profit out of their cows as long as the cows are happy before they go for slaughter.

 

But you don't send the dogs back to be killed for their meat - you are temporarily caring for them and returning them to their families. I don't see any similiarity between running a kennels and running a farm.

[melissa]

I have been a member of compassion in world farming for years, they believe as I do that farm animals are sentient beings and feel as much as our domestic pets (anxiety, fear, affection etc) Although I don't eat meat I don't think all farmers are callous but they do what they do and like it or not, it as at the expense of the animal. Unfortunately many people do still see farm animals as a food stuff alone & are not concerned how it ended up on their plate, I guess that is their choice but I think it is so sad they feel no respect or compassion for an animal that pays the ultimate price for them. I don't advocate a total ban on meat or dairy foods it is a matter of choice but wish people would think more & buy freedom/free range foods (I know this is also not always ideal) but at least to me the thought that the animal will be allowed to do some of the things that come naturally has to be a step forward.

[sproggie14]

I'm not a full vegan to my shame but I 100% believe in the reasons behind it. In fact, I sometimes wonder whether it's really possible to be an ethical vegetarian and not be vegan. Basically because all dairy involves the animal being killed at some point.

 

In order for a cow to produce milk she must be pregnant or recently have given birth. 50% of the calves will be male for which the dairy industry has little or no use. As already said, many of these will end up in veal crates, crammed into a tiny space for all of their short, miserable lives before being slaughtered. But with the market for veal reducing, more and more are simply shot at birth The calves are separated from their mothers after about 24 hours and it has been shown that the cows grieve and suffer distress as a result. Those calves which aren't killed are then fed on an artifical formula to leave more of the milk for us. The cows are pumped full of hormones to make them produce more milk which is why they are so desperate to be milked. Mastitis is rife because their udders are overladen. There are some vile statistic somewhere about what a high percentage of milk contains pus from infected teats. Once the cows are at the age where their milk reduces (only a few years old) they are also slaughtered and used for low grade meat products. This is done regardless of whether they might at that point already be pregnant again So in order for there to be cows milk to be consumed, cows have to die and be badly treated. That's what I became a vegetarian to avoid so just because milk isn't actually dead cow doesn't make it any less vegetarian in that sense.

 

Eggs are cruel no matter how "free range" - a term which can be misleading anyway. Again, male offspring are of little use so are usually gassed or crushed on their first day of life to be sold as snake or bird of prey food or made into fertiliser. When hens start laying less eggs - about 2 years old - they are slaughtered. So again, although eggs aren't actual flesh, chickens die to provide us with them so that, to me, makes them incompatable with a vegetarian lifestyle.

[Rudi]

How do vegans get sufficient calcium and stuff that is supplied by dairy foods? Mum keeps her own chickens and eats their eggs, the chickens are as free range as possible without the foxes having free access and live until old age and perhaps either getting put to sleep by the vet if mum thinks they're suffering or they die in their nest - that's ethical-ish isn't it?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Rudi

[Helly]

I don't think you can base your opinion of farming on one or two farmers you happen to know. Most farmers do not "love" their animals in any sense that I'd understand - they are a commodity, pure and simple. Cows queue up, as BillyMalc says, because they are in agony from the weight of their over-full udders and desperate to have the pain relieved by milking.

 

how do you know most farmers dont care about their animals? Thats as big a generalisation as others claiming farmers DO care.

[taylor]

how do you know most farmers dont care about their animals? Thats as big a generalisation as others claiming farmers DO care.

 

 

Wouldnt using their animals bodies for monetry gain and eventually killing them for further profit indicate that the animals dont take priority in farming ?

[scotslass]

how do you know most farmers dont care about their animals? Thats as big a generalisation as others claiming farmers DO care.

 

No, I didn't say they didn't care about them - I said most "don't love their animals in any sense I'd understand" - I come from a farming community and they'd (mostly) laugh at the idea that farmers "love" their animals. How could someone who "loves" their animals allow them to be transported as they usually are, for example? I have no illusions about the average farmer - I accept the fact that do what they do because there's a market for cheap food, but I don't accept that they "love" their animals. They couldn't afford to, emotionally, or they'd be wrecks.

 

By the way, I think it was another poster (rachel?)who used the word "love" and it was her post I was responding to.