"rescues" For Sale

[Jacobean]

Have you not thought that maybe the rescues have gone along with this because they know these animals will live which may not have happened in the past? They also have a foot in the door to be able to hold discussions with this store and chip away at them bit by bit. Gaining their trust, giving advice on animal welfare and what they would expect in the future. This could be a small step to things being largely improved for these animals in years to come. Who knows.

 

For the record. I haven't actually discussed whether I agree with this scheme or not. I have just been discussing the legality of it and the wording. I picked up on the statement that the store is duping it's customers into believing they are helping rescues and have been discussing that which is why I want to see a leaflet.

 

I don't agree with any store selling live animals. If individuals stop purchasing them then this will all stop. There are things you can do to help with this. Write letters to your local newspaper. Try and get a report in. Write to your local radio station. Write to the local mp where the store is based etc etc etc.

[KathyM]

Have you not thought that maybe the rescues have gone along with this because they know these animals will live which may not have happened in the past? They also have a foot in the door to be able to hold discussions with this store and chip away at them bit by bit. Gaining their trust, giving advice on animal welfare and what they would expect in the future. This could be a small step to things being largely improved for these animals in years to come. Who knows.

 

Who knows if they'll live? Who knows if they'll have a good home? Who knows? Not the chain store. Not the rescues rehoming their pets through a scheme that doesn't do checks. Not the chain who sells pregnant animals to anyone (which I feel was a dodgey manoeuvre to get around regulations of "selling" livestock ill/pregnant).

 

Half the problem is noone knows. Noone knows that the potential owners are good homes. Noone knows if they'll manage to see past poor advice and keep their rats well. Noone knows if these people are providing suitable housing, food, care, vet care, etc. For a quid you can get a rat with no checks - maybe they'll strike "lucky" and get one that's up the duff. Why would any rescue be endorsing that?

 

Yes change can come about from within. I've spoken to a few people who work for this chain - it's been a mixed bag. In some cases there have been minor changes, but in the big stuff they're often banging their heads against brick walls. In all the years I've spoken to "insiders" I've not once got the impression that the chain care about anything other than making money. It's a business after all, and business priority is making money. To suggest they're going to stop getting them from rat farms, okay them to go in larger more expensive housing, sex them properly (when pregnant animals = ten times the profit), etc etc when rescues are already involved in the scheme is naive - they've got what they need to continue and do so looking like bleeding martyrs to people who don't know better.

 

The only way for these people to stop what they're doing is to hit them in the pocket and have major rescues publically speak out *against* this kind of practice. As long as this chain can blindfold people with fake proclamations of helping rescue (yes rescues are getting money, but this chain are keeping them running with their leftover stock and homes falling through), and have the rescues have their name to it, the animals don't stand a bl**dy chance.

[Trallwm farm]

Have you not thought that maybe the rescues have gone along with this because they know these animals will live which may not have happened in the past? They also have a foot in the door to be able to hold discussions with this store.

 

 

That would be like me encouraging people to go to auctions to save ponies at inflated prices.

I know that numbers will increase in an already flooded market and the only living being to benefit is the seller.

 

You have to stand firm and say no.

That way others will start asking and then the truth comes out. no more animals would die than would have anyway and less will be bred to add to the problem.

[KathyM]

Edit: D'uhh sorry, link names chain. PM me for it if you like.

Edited August 1, 2007 by KathyM

[Jacobean]

I don't purchase animals from a pet store so I am holding firm.

 

There are rescues that do take in dogs from puppy farms. Maybe you feel they shouldn't. But they do exist.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Jacobean

[KathyM]

Do those same rescues have their name endorsing the puppy farm or take money from the sale of their animals? Cos then you'd have a very valid argument as a comparison.

[cycas]

I completely agree with your questions about food, BUT you don't go to the food suppliers and see rescue labels saying "Supoort battery farming - we work alongside X rescue" do you?

 

Yes. I often see charitable rescue events which are sponsored by food manufacturers, or where they provide the prizes and I know that my local rescue recommends a brand that is made from factory-farmed chicken. It's exactly the same scenario: they don't tell you that their product contains factory farmed meat unless you ask, but if you dig, the information is there.

 

Buying factory farmed meat is an accepted norm in our society, so even though I personally don't do it, don't like it, and wish it was easier to avoid, I don't believe that any organisation that does it is necessarily doing it because it doesn't care or can't be bothered, and nor do I expect, say, a dog charity to divert from its main goal to lead a crusade on something that is not part of its core mission.

 

That said, one of the charities mentioned in connection with this scheme specifically deals with rabbits, so I am pretty sure they have thought hard about this. They have issued a press release that mentions this debate.

 

It says that they believe rabbits should not be sold in pet shops, but that the majority of the public do believe that, and that they felt that this was an opportunity to communicate with those people that could not be missed. I agree with them. I cannot think of anything that charity could do that would more effectively allow them to get the message over to people shopping in those stores. I am sure that they have issued statements opposing the sale of animals in petstores in the past. That sort of press release doesn't get front page coverage. They'll be lucky if it gets a few paragraphs on an inside page on a slow news day. Nobody hears about it other than people who are already involved and committed.

 

Lesley, I do not believe that this is comparable to you encouraging people to buy ponies from auctions. I would say it's more like you going to an auction to provide information on horse care that makes it clear just what a big, expensive decision buying a horse would be, and explaining that horses regularly come into rescue to people who would otherwise have no idea that what they are doing isn't perfectly normal and correct.

[Jacobean]

I was answering Lesley's point that rescues shouldn't help out in these types of situations and should hold firm. Rescues do. Rescues have also bailed dogs out when they have seen free ads in newspapers etc. It goes against the grain but it helps the animal they see is in need. Some rescues just can't turn their back on these creatures. There is no right or wrong at a time like that. If they are not placed under an adoption scheme in future what will happen to these animals? Have you contacted the charities involved in all of this with your opinions? If so what have they had to say on the matter. What reasons have they come up with? You should receive open and honest responses from them regarding this.

 

Various organisations are working together all the time to try to achieve a better result for the future welfare of dogs. For instance DNB are in contact with the very police authority that have seized dogs off the street. On the face of it these are 2 drastically opposing forces. You have to work together to be able to get advice over and have a say in animal welfare. It has to start somewhere. I'm not saying this is what has happened as I haven't a clue. I'm just a bystander in all of this. I don't buy animals from pet shops. I'm just trying to come up with reasons why the charities might have decided to get involved rather than just tell the chain where to go.

 

Why don't you ask them or have you?

[Ian]

Do those same rescues have their name endorsing the puppy farm or take money from the sale of their animals? Cos then you'd have a very valid argument as a comparison.

 

 

They may not name the source but as I said above most rescues will expect an adoption fee / donation or whatever they choose to call it for most animals (there are exceptions stated where a particular animal may perhaps justify that at one of those rescues) but generally speaking the answer would be yes.

[Jacobean]

It seems that their charitable trust also take donations from public which is distributed to the charities involved. Plus they give advice regarding other animals. If someone is looking for say a dog they will give information of a rehoming centre for them to get in touch with. So that is where the charities are gaining from this.

[KathyM]

Jacobean - that's admirable, I do like the sound of that. doesn't really excuse their practices in store though.

 

Ian - I meant do the rescues take money from puppy farms specifically from the sale of other dogs (I'm sure even you'd agree there's a vast difference between selling animals to anyone who comes in with money and rescuing and rehoming them properly).

 

What this chain are doing is not adoption, nor is it rescue. To use either term (and to credit them they've worded it very carefully to avoid calling them rescues directly and i'm only using the term because it was compared to the rescue of puppy farm dogs) would suggest they were putting the animals and their future first, which clearly they're not.

[Jacobean]

You seem to now be talking about the store as a whole.

[KathyM]

Well how are you meant to separate it when animals are going in the adoption areas when they're just left over? How are you meant to separate it when it's all run by the same people? How are you meant to seaprate it all when they're using the adoption areas to get around the legalities of selling pregnant animals? That's like someone saying don't judge all Nazis on Hitler.

 

Edited to add: When I said "in store" I was including their practices in the adoption areas, not just their shop front.

Edited August 1, 2007 by KathyM

[Jacobean]

I have been discussing the adoption scheme. There are so many things you could discuss about this particular store but then you could about others, supermarkets etc etc. Why pick on the one if you want to have a conversation about the welfare of the animals etc etc.

 

This thread started with you saying that the public are being duped by a leaflet stating that this store were selling animals by dubious means. You've then gone on to bring other things in which are topics all their own really. I've asked that a piece from the leaflet is copied here so we can read it and comment on that. We haven't had it. The rights and wrongs of the adoption scheme have been discussed. Then it's moved onto one thing after another. I don't agree with a store selling live animals full stop. I've said that all along.

 

Time and energy is being spent here that could be spent contacting the powers that be whether by trying to advise them what they are doing is wrong. Contacting the charities involved asking what their take is on all of this and whether they advise the stores on how to treat animals in their care. Etc etc etc.

 

 

I haven't once said that it is ok for a store to sell live animals and neither has anyone else. You are preaching to the converted.

[KathyM]

I'm not preaching to anyone, I'm having a debate on a controversial forum that's here for this kind of thing - as are you. I've listened to your views, argued against some, and taken others on board. Where have I wasted time in sorting this out? I've been in contact with the chain involved and have said so on here. I'm hardly likely to take it further formally without their answers. I've also explained several times about the leaflet. What exactly are you wanting me to do - travel to Wakefield just to pick one up for you? My friend has told me what it contains so I don't have the need for it, and I've said when I can get hold of one I will, just for you.