Five Month Old Baby Dies In Car

[Kats inc]

OK devils advocate.

 

It's your child I'm looking after and I make a mistake such as those above and they die as a consequence...how do you feel about that? Would you see it as an error still?

 

*Please note this isn't about being argumentative it's about whether we change our view when it's our child/animal and individual responsibility or we've handed it to someone else...does that make sense?

[mooandboo]

OK devils advocate.

 

It's your child I'm looking after and I make a mistake such as those above and they die as a consequence...how do you feel about that? Would you see it as an error still?

 

*Please note this isn't about being argumentative it's about whether we change our view when it's our child/animal and individual responsibility or we've handed it to someone else...does that make sense?

I would never forgive myself for not being there for my child - same as if I had made the mistake myself. I see my child as my responsibility (which is why I personally don't leave him with anyone other than when he's at school) but as someone has said I'm not infallible & I'm all too aware that others aren't either.

 

Just to be clear, when I state my personal viewpoint it's just that, as it relates to me personally - I don't mean it as a criticism of others.

[pboae]

I'm not sure where you are going with that. Assuming it was simply an error and not deliberate neglect, then it would still 'just' be an error, regardless of my perception of it or feelings about it. The law ought to be objective, even if those connected to the incident can't.

 

People are human and they make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes have desperately tragic consequences. Sometimes society feels it has to punish mistakes, other times they think people have 'suffered enough' already. I don't understand exactly how that works, but that's how it seems to be. Just because I can understand how something happened, and even have sympathy for the person who did it, doesn't mean I think they should be absolved from any blame or punishment. But to portray something like this as extreme and unimaginable behaviour is completely unrealistic. As it trying to blame it on working mothers, as if they are automatically worse parents or more likely to be neglectful.

 

I think it is the sort of thing that anyone could do, under the right set of unfortunate circumstances.

Edited June 5, 2007 by pboae

[scotslass]

[

My best friend is 23 and a single mum to my two year old godson. She receives no financial help from his father, so should she sit on her backside all day and claim benefits? Cos that is what she will have to do to support her son if she doesnt work.

 

Yes, she should receive financial help from the father, but it's insulting to stay-at-home parents to suggest that they "sit on their backsides all day". Many people claim benefits for very good reason; they aren't all feckless layabouts, which this kind of remark implies.

 

[/bAs it trying to blame it on working mothers, as if they are automatically worse parents or more likely to be neglectful.

 

I don't think anyone's intention was to blame working mothers/parents - but if, as alleged, the woman was so overburdened with work and child care commitments that she simply couldn't cope, surely there's a case for standing back and questioning our priorities?

[Ian]

I don't think anyone's intention was to blame working mothers/parents - but if, as alleged, the woman was so overburdened with work and child care commitments that she simply couldn't cope, surely there's a case for standing back and questioning our priorities?

 

Exactly!

[Ian]

OK devils advocate.

 

It's your child I'm looking after and I make a mistake such as those above and they die as a consequence...how do you feel about that? Would you see it as an error still?

 

I'm not sure where you are going with that. Assuming it was simply an error and not deliberate neglect, then it would still 'just' be an error, regardless of my perception of it or feelings about it. The law ought to be objective, even if those connected to the incident can't.

 

 

It seems quite obvious where Kats inc is going to me. Are you saying pbooae that you can actually quote a piece of legislation that says leaving a child in a car all day (for example) is not neglect if it wasn't done deliberately (which I would find astonishing) - or is it in fact merely your perception that this is what the law would say? Neglect is neglect - intent or lack of cannot be a defence surely? (how would anyone ever be convicted if they could claim that?)

[scotslass]

OK devils advocate.

 

It's your child I'm looking after and I make a mistake such as those above and they die as a consequence...how do you feel about that? Would you see it as an error still?

 

*Please note this isn't about being argumentative it's about whether we change our view when it's our child/animal and individual responsibility or we've handed it to someone else...does that make sense?

 

I suspect most of us would want you (or whoever the carer was) punished. I don't think we'd be half as forgiving as we seem to be when it's a mother.

 

We'd say it was your job to mind the child and you failed...and that is why I wouldn't leave my young children with anyone else. I am not saying I never made mistakes - but I know that no-one else could have the bond I had with my babies. I couldn't switch off for a minute; they were literally on my mind all the time. To me, making ends meet and doing without luxuries while they were little was a price worth paying. Babies don't need fancy prams and designer clothes; they need loving, consistent care. I am saddened by the number of children I see ferried off every day to minders and nurseries, by parents who haven't time to think straight or enjoy their own babies; where a sick child is a problem to be dealt with by frantic phone calls at the last minute.

 

I also don't want to be seen as argumentative. This is a desperately serious issue.

[pboae]

It seems quite obvious where Kats inc is going to me. Are you saying pbooae that you can actually quote a piece of legislation that says leaving a child in a car all day (for example) is not neglect if it wasn't done deliberately (which I would find astonishing) - or is it in fact merely your perception that this is what the law would say? Neglect is neglect - intent or lack of cannot be a defence surely? (how would anyone ever be convicted if they could claim that?)

 

These are two seperate things Ian,

 

1)

Child 1 grabs a pan and pours boiling water all over themself, the parent was there and watching, but wasn't quick enough to stop them.

Child 2 does the same thing, but the parent had left them unattended for a few minutes, or turned their back for a moment, or thought the child was elsewhere.

Child 3 gets scalded because their parent deliberatley poured boiling water over them to punish the child.

I can see a difference in culpability in those situations. Also, the first two could happen to anyone, or at least most people, under the right circumstances. The last one requires something which I don't think (hope?) most people have in them.

 

2)

Of course there is no legislation that says it's OK to leave a child in a car all day, but as a general rule parents get exceptionally mild punishments for hurting/killing their own child when compared with the sentence that a stranger who does the same would get. It seems to me that the judgement that a parent has suffered is not based on anything objective and rational.

 

 

 

With regards the other comments, I've not read anything here to convince me that childcare arrangements are anything other than a red herring. A SAHM can be just as stressed, depressed and exhausted as one who works.

Edited June 5, 2007 by pboae

[Ian]

These are two seperate things Ian,

 

1)

Child 1 grabs a pan and pours boiling water all over themself, the parent was there and watching, but wasn't quick enough to stop them.

Child 2 does the same thing, but the parent had left them unattended for a few minutes, or turned their back for a moment, or thought the child was elsewhere.

Child 3 gets scalded because their parent deliberatley poured boiling water over them to punish the child.

I can see a difference in culpability in those situations. Also, the first two could happen to anyone, or at least most people, under the right circumstances. The last one requires something which I don't think (hope?) most people have in them.

 

2)

Of course there is no legislation that says it's OK to leave a child in a car all day, but as a general rule parents get exceptionally mild punishments for hurting/killing their own child when compared with the sentence that a stranger who does the same would get. It seems to me that the judgement that a parent has suffered is not based on anything objective and rational.

With regards the other comments, I've not read anything here to convince me that childcare arrangements are anything other than a red herring. A SAHM can be just as stressed, depressed and exhausted as one who works.

 

Now I'm the one who doesn't really see where you're going here.

 

For me the acts you cite in 1) 1 & 2 are both acts of negligence, therefore yes neglect but though it's a fine line I admit, I'm not sure I'd class them as being the same as leaving a child in a car for hours. IE You should as a parent be aware that you don't leave a pan handle in a position where a child could pull that pan down on top of them. Such an act of negligence could however happen in seconds and I might therefore myself consider that that parent had suffered enough if they were truly remorseful.

 

A parent leaving a child in a car for 8 hours requires sustained lack of though / neglect for that child and I couldn't envisage any amount of remorse being enough for me to pity them in those circumstances.

 

Act 1) 3 isn't neglect at all - I'd cheerfully hang someone who deliberately did that to a child!

 

In Item 2 I think I do see where you're going but only partly agree.

 

I'd generally speaking agree that a parent or stranger committing the same act should receive the same penalty - particularly if it was clear cut cruelty. Perhaps unfair but I don't know to be honest whether I'd be harder on a child minder who left a pan in reach of a child than the parent - possibly because they had been paid as a supposedly trained and experienced professional.

 

In saying I wouldn't leave my own child with a stranger they are of course absolved of that risk - it would be down to me / my wife (if I had one) / gran etc

 

I don't subscribe to the view that a parents suffering is a defence for negligence (eg my comments on my sympathy being with poor little Maddie but her parents deserving their current suffering in another thread)

 

Whilst some, including me have suggested that priorities need to be considered and I (and others) believe noone outside of the family will ever have the same bond with your child as you do yourself I don't think that anyone has said a Stay at home mum could not suffer depression or whatever other diffculties. In fact it was suggested that if a Child was at risk for whatever reason then they should be removed to safety as first priority and support given to the parent(s) thereafter. It was however specifically suggested that in this particular case the mothers workload was ultimately the issue causing this childs death - ie from the initial link starting this thread

 

Cathy Ranson (31) parked as usual at 8am outside the laundry where she works in Halle, Belgium and when she returned eight hours later her son, Guy, was still in his seat - dead from dehydration.

 

Mrs Ranson, who was said to be stressed from coping with a job and a family, took her three children in the family's saloon car when she set off for work on the day of the tragedy.

 

"But Belgian child care experts and counsellors are rallying to her defence.

 

Stress specialist Theo Compernolle said: "It is not unusual for people facing the daily pressure of work and children to do the most unusual, silly things in a moment of forgetfulness.

 

"Cathy was clearly a working mother under stress on that day. I've known women like her who leave their baby in a pram outside a clothes' shop and then wander away down the street window shopping.

 

"Forgetfulness has nothing to do with whether a mother loves her child. It's just that other worries can take over and they forget the most elementary things.

 

"Nobody should point an accusing finger at this young mother."

Edited June 5, 2007 by Ian

[mooandboo]

In all of these discussions it worries me that no one has commented on the fathers' culpability

[Ian]

In all of these discussions it worries me that no one has commented on the fathers' culpability

 

 

I think as far as the childs death is concerned that's because the mother alone was with the children and it wouldn't be unreasonable for any man (or woman) to trust their partner with dropping the kids off.

 

In more general terms if you go back a page or so starting with Cheryls comment about her 23 year old friend you'll find 2 or 3 of us commenting on the fathers responsibility to provide & care for the children they choose to sire.

[mooandboo]

I think as far as the childs death is concerned that's because the mother alone was with the children and it wouldn't be unreasonable for any man (or woman) to trust their partner with dropping the kids off.

 

In more general terms if you go back a page or so starting with Cheryls comment about her 23 year old friend you'll find 2 or 3 of us commenting on the fathers responsibility to provide & care for the children they choose to sire.

I don't want to go into detail but I know well of situations where for all on the outside the father is present and *providing*, (to those who don't know a *perfect* father) for his child/children but very much absent in the actual caring & daily routine - the father who sees nothing wrong in carrying on his life as normal - going out, going to bed early, sleeping late on weekends or when he's not working, coming in from work & sitting around oblivious of the fact that he has a child or children, expecting his partner to look after the child/ren and him & often to put his needs first. The father who can *disappear to do something important* leaving an already stressed & tired mother to deal with everything - I could go on.

 

I get so damn tired of everything seeming so black and white in relation to the mother when there are so many factors which can contribute to seemingly *neglectful* behaviour on her part . I personally believe firmly that if you have children you should do everything possible to ensure their wellbeing but I get very tired of the father never being properly brought into the equation in such circumstances as have been presented.

 

I'd like to add that my own OH, despite his faults, isn't such a father but I have close experience of some who are and the pressure they place on the mothers of their children is unbelievable and unacceptable whilst managing to project an image of the perfect parent themselves.

 

Ian, as much as I commend you for your beliefs I think you have a lot to learn.

[sanrossscot]

This may be slightly off topic, but there seems to be this idea that there is no such thing as an 'accident' anymore - someone 'has' to be blamed/sued etc in our 'blame' culture where compensation seems to be the name of the game.

 

Leaving a child in a car 'deliberately' ie - knowing the child is there and still leaving it, would be abuse.

 

Circumstances happening that the child is left in the car, but the mother thinking that the child is where he/she would normally be ie in childcare/nursery whatever is IMO a different thing. The mothers in these cases would have thought their child was safely where they usually were.

[cheryl33]

Ian - its all very well saying men should pay for the children they produce, but a lot of them dont, hence the reason my friend has to work

 

And my parents being misguided about my brother going to boarding school - we lived in Germany, we moved around a lot and my brother was just about to enter high school. Hence the reason he went to boarding school - to continue his education without disruption

 

Scotslass - sayign she could sit on her backside and claim benefits was not a sweeping statement. Its was a comment because I know a lot of girls my age and younger who have kids and do exactly that - sit on their backside and claim benefits. I realise some people do claim for genuine reasons but that has nothing to do with what I mentioned.

 

I'm not a parent, probably never will be, so I cant comment on much more.

Edited June 6, 2007 by cheryl33

[scotslass]

Ian, as much as I commend you for your beliefs I think you have a lot to learn.

 

No, I disagree. I think Ian will continue to be the kind of man we'd all wish children to have around. I know many men like him - fathers who care for their children and are constantly vigilant over them.

 

No-one condones the behaviour of uninvolved fathers, men who think that "work" or hobbies or whatever is more important than family - I'm arguing that some women - not all - are beginning to think the same way. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.

 

 

This may be slightly off topic, but there seems to be this idea that there is no such thing as an 'accident' anymore - someone 'has' to be blamed/sued etc in our 'blame' culture where compensation seems to be the name of the game.

 

Leaving a child in a car 'deliberately' ie - knowing the child is there and still leaving it, would be abuse.

 

Circumstances happening that the child is left in the car, but the mother thinking that the child is where he/she would normally be ie in childcare/nursery whatever is IMO a different thing. The mothers in these cases would have thought their child was safely where they usually were.

 

But the woman (or her defenders) are blaming something - stress from too many responsibilities, in this case. That's why I say we need to remove some of that overload.

 

 

Scotslass - sayign she could sit on her backside and claim benefits was not a sweeping statement. Its was a comment because I know a lot of girls my age and younger who have kids and do exactly that - sit on their backside and claim benefits. I realise some people do claim for genuine reasons but that has nothing to do with what I mentioned.

 

On the other hand, I know women who go out to so-called "work" and spend half their day sitting on their backsides doing nothing much. They then come home, collect their kids and stick them in front of a screen. That doesn't mean we should judge all working mothers by their standards - there are many who don't act like that, after all.

 

I assumed we were talking about how to avoid tragedies like this one; I still see no point in going out to work to make money which is then used up on child care and cars.