Training Contacts

[Dizzycharm]

Lets see (was a few years ago now) if I remember exactly what I did with Dizzy.

 

Started with low table and had the contact part of the dogwalk on it (top on table, contact part on floor). Dog on lead (harness is good as it stays central on the back). Plate with food on, about 1 foot away from contact (this depends on size of dog).

 

Dog knows food is on plate and can see it. Give command and allow dog to descend and stop in correct position (thats why dog is on lead and can't get it wrong - hopefully). Once in place reinforce word and position - I use the word 'feet', so it was 'feet, good feet, good feet' etc etc. Continue with exercise until dog is happy with word and position, and that you can allow the dog to complete exercise without your intervention with lead pressure (this will be done over several training sessions and not all at once).

 

Don't move on till you are happy that the dog knows what is expected of him.

 

I then progressed to a low dog walk (short tressels). Held dog in front of dogwalk and gave command (the up and along a dogwalk doesn't really need to be taught as they tend to just do it). When happy you can transfer skill to full height dogwalk. It is always helpful to have someone to pick up food if your dog has a tendancy to run round to food. Dogs are clever and soon learn that they have to do required exercise before treat is allowed. I was lucky and had no problems - Dizzy was quite happy to go over dogwalk to get treat.

 

With my young dog I started as a pup by placing her on the end with the plate and food and reinforcing the position and releasing to her toy.

This progressed to moving her back a foot and bringing her into position, then 2 feet etc. She thought it was great, food then ball, food then ball and loved doing it.

 

Obviously this method works just as well to a target and clicker, and you keep the motivation.

 

I am very happy with this way of training as it has worked for mine. But there are many ways to train contacts and you see lots of dogs are shows which have fast and accurate contacts, which may have been trained differently. Maybe at a show, speak to someone you have watched in the ring and liked their dog's contacts, and see what they did, they may be more than happy to share their words of wisdoms

[mum24dog]

im definately liking my contact training method im using now.. getting a two on two off by getting her to stop to find something... we didnt miss a contact today!!

 

I've never been able to use the food on the contact method successfully.

Most of mine have just gone on searching obsessively for more, and worse, they do it when someone else has been baiting the contact with food.

Not only that, if they know that someone had been baiting the contact a couple of weeks before, they still look for food.

 

Pam

[sandymoss]

Im hoping she doesnt do that Pam! She is quite keen to get to the next obstacle so im hoping that will be a good enough incentive! My only concern at the moment is she is pausing at the top of the A-Frame now where as she used to be quicker!

[Christine R]

Im hoping she doesnt do that Pam! She is quite keen to get to the next obstacle so im hoping that will be a good enough incentive! My only concern at the moment is she is pausing at the top of the A-Frame now where as she used to be quicker!

 

 

To get her to stop doing that, i.e. stopping at the top of the A-frame, you need to get her back onto lead training over the A-frame as that way you have some control over what she's doing. To help encourage her to come down quickly you could use a treat or toy.

[Guest patch]

I've never been able to use the food on the contact method successfully.

Most of mine have just gone on searching obsessively for more, and worse, they do it when someone else has been baiting the contact with food.

Not only that, if they know that someone had been baiting the contact a couple of weeks before, they still look for food.

 

Pam

 

Thats why I dont use it as a method. I never teach the putting back on just the contact either - seen too many dogs which miss the contact but then step backward themselves cos they have been put back on so often in training so they start to think thats how they are supposed to do it.

When teaching a new dog from scratch, I usually teach on lead, slow walking initially, a *brief* pause on the contact, then walk calmly off. I gradually have them speed up and gauge each one individually for if and when they might need a slow down cue, or a stop cue to get them to put the brakes on even if just to break the stride enough to get the contacts well.

 

Handler positioning is important too. Ideally the optimum place for the handler to try to get to is where the colours meet on the down contact and to stop dead there, which helps guide the dog to slow down in time, hands by handlers side - absolutely not sticking out, not in front of the dog, and not over the contact. While the handler might think they are telling their dog to slow down or stop on the contact, to the dog it says ` `DONT GO ON THAT BIT !` leading them to often leap over and off, or jump off sideways, as can the handler dipping forward and down to point to the contact - point yes, thats fine, but not by dipping forward and down at the same time cos to the dog its a body position the handler also uses to run fast thereby encouraging the dog to launch off as soon as possible to run with the handler. By the handler stopping and not using hands/ arms / shoulders to indicate anything away from the contact they are working on, the dogs tend to slow or pause better while `waiting ` for the next cue, which can usually [ wont claim it does it 100% with every single dog ! ], break the stride enough for really nice contacts.

If using a stop cue for a very fast dog, I find they respond better to an unusual word or vocal sound rather than one they hear so often that they tend to just blow it off.

I dont bother with any of the stopping the dog on the contact for ages, nor putting them back on the contact only. I teach walking, then gradually speeding up, to running contacts right from the start basically. I feel that the `stop start, bit at a time` approach [ the type I outlined as how I dont teach it ], means the dog has to learn it differently each time they progress a bit, and I dont see the point in that myself.

I dont advocate nor teach by the dropping or placing treats on the contact either - its not allowed in competition so I feel its inconsistent - dogs soon learn which setting one method is used [ training ] and which it does`nt apply to [ competitions / different places ]. Does`nt take long for a dog to start realising there is no point looking for the treat thats not there anymore so its not a good solid method imo.

I have had quite a few students in the past who were taught elsewhere with what seem to me to be very strange and pointless methods which never worked properly for their dogs and had to undo bad habits caused by those methods and completely retrain them from scratch - it got to the point at one club where I taught that I knew where new people under me previously trained by their [ lack of ] contacts and the handling method they were `taught`

 

The way I start them all off is based on working with Defa. As he is deaf, I have become quite attuned to how dogs tend to respond to position and movement so everyone learning contacts with me is really being taught by Defa, I just translate Once the basic idea is in place we can then tweak to suit each dog for better positioning / speed / timing etc.

 

Of course all the above is far easier to demonstrate in person than to describe in writing [ for me anyway ] so if its not understandable enough for you to try out, it wont be you, its cos I write descriptions badly unfortunately

 

Dont know if these pics will help at all but in case they do :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mum24dog]

Quote:By the handler stopping and not using hands/ arms / shoulders to indicate anything away from the contact they are working on, the dogs tend to slow or pause better :Quote

 

 

That's a good point.

The most effective piece of advice I have had regarding contacts was from Alan Bray who recommended that get the dog's attention by using it's name at the right point on the way down (good timing needed) and position myself facing the side of the contact (ie not facing the way we are going), stand up straight with hands at waist level pointing slightly forward towards the contact and a couple of feet apart.

In this way you take control of the contact area and, as you say, you aren't encouraging the dog to go anywhere else. It works instantly as well.

It could work both for 2o2o and running contacts.

The only snag is that you need to be fast enough to get to the contact slightly before the dog.

As I'm not that fast, my inclination would be to try and get the dog to understand the contact fully so it can get it irrespective of where I may be.

None of this applies to our JRT who does need the handler to bend down and lead him down the contact with the hand.

 

Pam

[kirisox]

Well there certainly are lots and lots of different contact training opinions! I worry this thread may become a bit confusing for Wombat, as none of us really have any idea how her dog is performing on the contacts; the only people who do are Wombat herself and the trainers at her club. I see you are near Newbury Wombat, where do you train (PM me if you prefer)?

So much depends, as has already been said, on the type of dog being trained, and the level you hope to reach with your dog. For example, Patch has suggested that (sorry to pick on you Patch, it's just an example!)

Handler positioning is important too. Ideally the optimum place for the handler to try to get to is where the colours meet on the down contact and to stop dead there, which helps guide the dog to slow down in time, hands by handlers side - absolutely not sticking out, not in front of the dog, and not over the contact.

Many dogs are so quick that to attempt to be with them at every contact is just not possible, thus the dog must be taught to perform as independently from the handler as possible (see Crazymasey videos here as an example), and if competing, courses will be set to test the dogs' ability to do the contacts independently. So while the method suggested may work for Patch's dogs, for someone else's dog it may not be so great; the same applies for any of the suggested methods.

I think I agree with Dizzycharm that perhaps Wombat should ask someone perhaps at her club or at a show whose contacts you admire and see how they trained them. But again, all they can tell you is what worked for them!

I am at most South East shows if you ever want to say hi!

[Christine R]

The only snag is that you need to be fast enough to get to the contact slightly before the dog.

Pam

 

You took the words right out of my mouth Pam!! Alan Bray has a slight advantage in that he has long legs and can RUN!

[Guest patch]

So much depends, as has already been said, on the type of dog being trained, and the level you hope to reach with your dog. For example, Patch has suggested that (sorry to pick on you Patch, it's just an example!)

Many dogs are so quick that to attempt to be with them at every contact is just not possible, thus the dog must be taught to perform as independently from the handler as possible (see Crazymasey videos here as an example), and if competing, courses will be set to test the dogs' ability to do the contacts independently. So while the method suggested may work for Patch's dogs, for someone else's dog it may not be so great; the same applies for any of the suggested methods.

I think I agree with Dizzycharm that perhaps Wombat should ask someone perhaps at her club or at a show whose contacts you admire and see how they trained them. But again, all they can tell you is what worked for them!

I am at most South East shows if you ever want to say hi!

 

 

Hiya, I probably did`nt clarify well enough Its how I start new dogs off - once they have the contact consistently as an individual piece of equipment we then move on to increasing the distance and speed. In the pics of the darker Beardie, when they came to me they had pretty much never got a contact in four years of training elsewhere so I took them right back to basics as if they were compete beginners. Annie now gets her contacts consistantly whatever speed she is going [ which depends on the approach and angle from the previous element - her usual speed is ` dont blink you`ll miss her ` ] and wherever her handler is now, be it behind, crossing, in front, or belting off to another element while Annie completes the contact element - iow she can be anywhere on the course now - Annie gets her contacts. It took time to build up to that of course

My Defa [ in the bottom pic ] also gets his A-Frame contacts no matter what - in fact he has only ever missed it once in a training session several years ago, and has missed his dogwalk contact only twice in all his years. I absolutely agree that the handler cant always get to an optimum position which is why its how I teach to start with as a single element then increase the level of difficulty but only once the dog understands what is needed and has good consistency

 

Sorry I was`nt as clear as I could have been - told ya my descriptive writing is rubbish

 

ps will you be at Five Rivers, DIN, the Orchard show [ at Suffolk show ground ], or Burnham ? I`ll definately be at those and would love to get to meet up for a coffee

[mum24dog]

while the method suggested may work for Patch's dogs, for someone else's dog it may not be so great; the same applies for any of the suggested methods.

 

I can hardly disagree with that having dogs that range from

a leggy trailhound cross that can do 2o2o quite reliably but can't accelerate very well from that position

through

a really clumsy and worried collie cross that can do 2o2o but is very slow over the A frame in particular if he thinks he's going to be asked to do one and

a bouncy Medium who is totally unpredictable as to how fast she will be going and whose contact antics include hurdling the A frame and trampolining off the contact on the way down but who can be reliable if in the mood - this is an advanced dog, by the way - the one that Alan Bray's method works with -

(all these 3 have been known to miss up contacts)

right down to a JRT that would never do 2o2o if his life depended on it.

 

Pam

 

 

You took the words right out of my mouth Pam!! Alan Bray has a slight advantage in that he has long legs and can RUN!

 

Why do you think Carrie's running Hazel now?

[Wombat]

ps will you be at Five Rivers, DIN, the Orchard show [ at Suffolk show ground ], or Burnham ? I`ll definately be at those and would love to get to meet up for a coffee

 

No don't think i'm doing any of them, which is a shame as coffee and chat are my speciality . I'm going to do Dashin' Dogs and UKA week plus Supadogs in May week wise. Is it worth us posting when going to shows see who else is going- would be great to meet some Refugees

 

Kirisox thanks for worrying about my pea-sized brain, but I think it's actually being expanded by all this inside info- okay so it wouldn't take much as not much there in first place I'm actually finding it really interesting - and I always think that if you have a reasin as towhy you teach something then you must have spent time thinking it out, and if you keep teaching it then it must work for you which is all anyof us want in the end

 

I've been dabbling a bit with Giz on A-Frame and chatting to Dave Jolly who we have lessons with, and think have finally got my head round what I'm aiming for to start Giz off, which is very similar to exactly what you do only with him learning that his 2o2o he runs to automatically without command and then waits for release command, but I think that'sliterally splitting hairs with how you train, it just seems to have sunk in to dense skull thinking it thru like that. I'm also going to leave the up for now as with a target he got that 2nd time no worries with me standing well away from ramp, so will plonk him on and let him run down to target at base of off contact.

I train with Millenium and Sandleford club wise- I'm the pedantic, perfectionist Wombat in the corner running a Wabbit Do you train nearby?

Thanks again to everyone for the info, here's hoping for perfect contactsall round in 2006

[Guest patch]

Is it worth us posting when going to shows see who else is going- would be great to meet some Refugees

 

 

I think thats a great idea - who is the agility mod Could there be a dedicated Agility Shows thread where we could say which we will be at for meet-ups and then do brags [ or otherwise ] and pics after the relevent shows ?

[ dont want to tread on modly toes, its just a pretty please reqest ]

[kirisox]

I think thats a great idea - who is the agility mod Could there be a dedicated Agility Shows thread where we could say which we will be at for meet-ups and then do brags [ or otherwise ] and pics after the relevent shows ?

[ dont want to tread on modly toes, its just a pretty please reqest ]

 

Me That is a good idea, I will start the thread now with what shows I have entered so far and then if you all post below when you know where you will be I will edit the first post so we get a list of people who will be at certain shows

[Guest patch]

Me That is a good idea, I will start the thread now with what shows I have entered so far and then if you all post below when you know where you will be I will edit the first post so we get a list of people who will be at certain shows

 

 

Nice one modly person

[Wombat]

great! will go add my 1st two

 

P.S.Gizmo was GREAT at training tonight, am seriously confident that I'm heading in right direction with contacts now, thanks again to everyone for their input, what a brilliant team of cyber trainers there are on here