Training Contacts

[Wombat]

Just after peoples opinions on what they teach and why they think it gives them the best results and consistency in the ring. Poor Levi and I have been through 3 different methods now as we've learnt what we need to speed up. i'm about to start training Gizmo who is very fast by nature (whereas Levi is slow and steady and likes me close) so don't want to lose his natural speed but want consistency too

 

I've had 3 differing but strong opinions on how to train him:-

1) back train-i.e.place him on end contact then gradually work backwards using a touch target for up

 

2) use touch targets for up and down but start with walking over on lead

 

3)start on lead, get dogs confidence up then use a 'stop' word for down contact and place dog back on if he misses it

 

Would love anyones thoughts on what has proved successful for them for what type (temperement wise) of doglet, ta muchly

[kirisox]

I think it depends on whether you have access to contact equipment at home. With access to the equipment all the time (several times a day), back-chaining should work very well, however I do not think it works as well if you are only able to do it once or twice a week at club.

 

Jay was was originally taught using your number 3 method (walking over on lead and making him stop at the bottom and putting him back on if he got off). I was not happy with the resultant contacts, it was very hit and miss and as he is a fast, high drive dog who likes to take control I needed something more, to control him.

 

I have now retrained him from scratch using a target on the down which he had to touch his nose on to get into the 2 on, 2 off position. The dog must know about targeting away from agility before you introduce them at agility. Place the target about a foot away from the down contact, maybe slightly less. Then give your 'target' command as they are coming down the contact. Your target command then becomes the contact command. The target makes them keep their head down and aim for the floor which should result in a dog that is less likely to 'ping' the contacts. The dog should not move from the position until you have given their release command. To reinforce this I gently tug his collar (without releasing him), and if he moves I just re-position him.

 

I firmly believe that an element of muscle memory/strengthening is required in order to hold the dog stable, particularly on the a-frame, until they have developed this they may try to stop with the front end but cannot quite hold the back end and they will appear to 'slump' off the contact.

 

Once Jay was firm in his 2o-2o position with his nose on the target, I began to run past him into the position I would like to be in during a competition and make sure he stays on the contact. If he does move, I just put him back on. If he stays there, I go straight back and praise him, and release him. Also run diagonally away from the dog, and try hanging back too.

 

Once that is rock-solid (and only when), I begin introducing the occasional running contact (by using an early release command). A good way to do this is to set up 'grids' where you do a circle of jumps with a contact as part of the circle, and go round and round, running some contacts, holding others. Always finish with a held contact.]

 

I faded the target by gradually using smaller targets, and then just chicken on the floor. I did this as soon as I was confident Jay knew what to do on the contacts (get to the end and stay in position until told). This will take different amounts of time depending on the dog.

 

If I was training a new dog now, I would not compete until I could do all of the above. The best way to lose your contacts is to go in the ring under pressure before your dog is ready.

 

Just to add, I think that perfectionism is the best way to get great contacts. Decide on what you what you want the dog to do and always insist on it. Make it as blacka dn white for the dog as possible - "if you stop here in this position you will get praise in some form. If you don't stop in this position, you don't." Some dogs will be so eager to get on with the course that they will stop with perhaps one foot on the contact - "Oh i really am trying hard mummy" - but if you want 2o-2o position, go to them and put them in the position and then praise them. My dog sees contacts as a great game with rules - he tries to push the rules sometimes (as above) and then enjoys trying to prove that he can get it right!

 

I hope that makes sense, I may have missed stuff out so please ask if it doesn't make sense!

Edited January 29, 2006 by kirisox

[Wombat]

No that's perfect thanks Kirisox, exactly what I wanted to know. Gizmo is high drive and likes to think for himself so Iwas pretty sure the back chaining wouldn't work for him. And I now understand how to put the touch target and insisting on the 2o 2o position together- I use the latter for Levi but not targets as can't use food with him or he becomes oblivious to anything but my pocket

Where Itrain uses touch targets but don't insist on position, and I really felt needed to do both or Giz would start making his own rules up! I'm with you 100% on the perfectionism side, and regularly blew classes at the start of last season by putting Levi back on when he reverted to his old leap off technique in the heat of comp, my friends thought I was mad but we're getting there, just the odd hiccup in comp now and prob 80%consistent in training with me in various pos of behind, in front etc.

Am so excited about training Giz, I really don't want to mess him up but feel like I know where to start now, thanks again Karen

[kirisox]

Good luck with Gizmo, i'm sure you will both do great

[Dizzycharm]

I used the back training method with Dizzy and could only do it at training. She worked to a plate with food and it worked fantastically for her. She is still spot on and very fast, so it definately worked for her. Other variations are to a toy or target point (whatever you use, such as a piece of carpet).

 

I have now taught the same way to my youngster who is 2 now. She will go on lovely and I can be anywhere and she will still go to the target at the bottom (the plate has been taken away and I now put a piece of food on the ground, or she has to go to the bottom before she gets the treat).

 

Consistancy is all important and the 2 feet on, 2 feet off is the common goal.

[Wombat]

Dizzycharm, so did you teach Dizzy to a target before you back trained, or did you introduce plate to the end of D.W (that sounds like something dodgy from Blind Date ).

 

I know I'm thinking about this far too deeply and getting in a right pickle, but it occured to me Tues as Giz ran round the A-Frame to touch his target that he was doing exactly as I had asked,i.e. finding the target and eating the treat

 

I use touch for Levi on the up but taught that with carpet on the up- I use stop for down but as I was re-training him it was just a case of keep putting him in 2o2o. But I did find that both these things slowed him down .However, this could have just been coz he was used to using a big bounce on and off stride and is now a bit unsure of his new instructions.

 

The club I train with are keen on targetting but if I have Giz head down at this stage his muscles are obviously not developed being young and head down seems to make it more difficult to stop? Or is the theory that if dog is running head down off the end then you can teach the stop later?

 

See, I is getting in a right muddle . Both you and Kirisox info makes perfect sense, I think I am obsessing a little and looking far too closely . Maybe I could post him to one of you and have him back when his contacts are nailed, Giz'd proably be greatly relieved to have someone sane training him for a change

Karen

[kirisox]

I know I'm thinking about this far too deeply and getting in a right pickle, but it occured to me Tues as Giz ran round the A-Frame to touch his target that he was doing exactly as I had asked,i.e. finding the target and eating the treat

 

If he is running round to the target you need to make sure someone is there to stand on the target so he does not get the treat. He should then learn that there is no reward unless he des it right.

When are you giving your target command?

 

The club I train with are keen on targetting but if I have Giz head down at this stage his muscles are obviously not developed being young and head down seems to make it more difficult to stop? Or is the theory that if dog is running head down off the end then you can teach the stop later?

 

I found with Jay that it took him a while to manage to stop from speed in the correct position. Just by being consistent, putting him back on in the correct position, tugging the collar to make sure he knew to stay put and practising the 2o-2o posistion on the stairs at home (and later a contact trainer) helped build his muscles up to enable him to hold the position.

 

Also, perhaps the target is a bit too close to the contact?

[mum24dog]

I've never been a great fan of 2o2o for my dogs (not collies).

Performed correctly by a dog that isn't going to risk injury by coming to a dead stop from a steep angle, they are great, and the lowering of the A frame makes it possible for more dogs to manage them.

However, they shouldn't be taught as the only and automatic way to do contacts and the dog's physical characteristics must be taken into account.

In addition, they can lose a great deal of time if a dog doesn't have the acceleration off the contact once it has stopped.

Personally, I like to see a fast running contact (probably because we have 2 Medium dogs (plus 3 Large) and that's what a lot of the best of them do), but they are a lot harder to train to get them reliable as it isn't quite as obvious to the dog what is required. Wish I could get mine to do them right.

[sandymoss]

im in the process of training Poppy to do a 2 on 2 off contact but getting her to find a piece of cheese at the bottom! she is doing well so far! much better than he running contacts which were hit and miss.

[mum24dog]

im in the process of training Poppy to do a 2 on 2 off contact but getting her to find a piece of cheese at the bottom! she is doing well so far! much better than he running contacts which were hit and miss.

 

Ah yes, but Poppy is fast and will be able to get going again without a problem.

I'd teach her that way too.

 

Pam

[Wombat]

If he is running round to the target you need to make sure someone is there to stand on the target so he does not get the treat. He should then learn that there is no reward unless he des it right.

When are you giving your target command?

 

 

Also, perhaps the target is a bit too close to the contact?

Actually to be fair they were picking it up if the dogs were running round- so just persevere and he'll transfer the touch command to going over the equipment?

We're being taught by showing them the target on far side and then using 'touch'as they approach the on- I then use stop for the down as he's near the bottom but they're not keen on you repositioning dog into 2o2o

I did think that - after a couple of dodgy stops where his bottom fell over his shoulders I did get them to move irt out a bit further which seemed to help.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Wombat

[Wombat]

I've never been a great fan of 2o2o for my dogs (not collies).

.

Personally, I like to see a fast running contact (probably because we have 2 Medium dogs (plus 3 Large) and that's what a lot of the best of them do), but they are a lot harder to train to get them reliable as it isn't quite as obvious to the dog what is required. Wish I could get mine to do them right.

I do know where you're coming from- I get a running contact almost from Levi but only from timing my command, but he is much slower than giz(staffiexlurcher) and I just don't think I will be able to time a voice command reliably enough to get a good running contact.

Thanks for all your replies, it's all really helping me work out how and why to train Giz a certain way. It's also fascinating to see how different techniques relate to different types and temperaments of doglets and have been developed around those factors.

p.s. sorry I had to edit, was trying to do a multi-quote thingy and it all went horribly wrong- Kirisox the bit of yours i quoted was supposed to be in 2 halves with my bits inbetween makes more sense if you read it that way but am abandoning now before computer gets helped with a hammer

[Lindsay]

Im not that experienced at agility, it was my hoped for dog sport, but, sadly due to problems training, due mainly to the way the contacts were trained, I pulled out. We trained for it for about a year, but a large part of that was attempting to sort out problems!

 

Banya's a belgian terv and very confident but sensitive. She was originally trained for contacts with method 3. We had a good instructor but, she was rather more used to BCs and gundogs. When I queried training methods with a Belgian agility trainer, I was told the best method for the breed (due to their innate sensitivity) was backchaining.

 

I can totally see this now, but at the time was new to agility, etc and because the instructor was someone i trusted, went along with method 3.

 

I just thought i'd mention this to add to the info

 

Lindsay

x

Edited February 5, 2006 by Lindsay

[mum24dog]

I trained my first real agility dog (a very worried collie cross) using method 3 and ended up with really slow contacts as he struggled to get the stop in.

Not only was he really anxious to get it right, he just isn't built to control himself that well.

So we've gone back to the "fingers crossed" method, and it suits him best. He gets the contacts often enough and he's happier, which is all that counts.

 

Pam

[sandymoss]

im definately liking my contact training method im using now.. getting a two on two off by getting her to stop to find something... we didnt miss a contact today!!