Citronella Collars

[DanishPastry]

I just had this visual image of a freaked out barking dog, with some hapless member of the public pinned against a wall and the owner ineffectively clapping hands and calling in a squeaky voice "here Fido, look, I've got some cheese!"

if my dog was capable of doing such a thing, it would not be lot off the lead in the first place, I'm not that irresponsible.

[LurcherGirl]

I didn't say to use aggression - I agree that aggression breeds aggression - but, being firm isn't aggressive. I was defending Kathy's method in taking CB into a time out though and saying that shouldn't be construed as being "punishment".

 

If you read my post, I suggest that Kathy uses a "WITH ME" command to pre-empt any barking... which traceymcl picked up on

 

I just had this visual image of a freaked out barking dog, with some hapless member of the public pinned against a wall and the owner ineffectively clapping hands and calling in a squeaky voice "here Fido, look, I've got some cheese!"

 

Yes, the WITH ME is good and something I use with my dogs myself. Using positive training doesn't mean just stand there with a treat in your hands and say "oh, but he doesn't listen to me when he does that". In this case, I would call back a dog AS SOON AS A MAN APPEARS and therefore no reaction happened yet and keep feeding the dog until the man has gone - and if that's 200 times during a walk so be it. Men will then become a cue to come back and collect the reward. That has two effects: first of all, it stops the dog going up to the men (replacing one behaviour with another) as the dog is going back to the owner and secondly it changes the dog's perception of men from "I don't like that one" to "oh, another man, yipee, where's my treat".

 

I successfully stopped my very pray driven lurcher from chasing trams. He also used to chase bikes, joggers etc, but compared to the trams that was easy to cure! (Trams for him are on par with rabbits, foxes, cats etc.!!!) He now spots/hears a tram, looks back to me and comes back immediately if I call him! He is like a dry alcoholic and would revert if I let him, but he is now safe around trams (and the trams are safe from him... ).

 

Vera

Edited September 12, 2006 by LurcherGirl

[DanishPastry]

Thank you Vera and Tracey, for explaining things properly, I sometimes struggle finding the right words.

[dlmckay]

Yes, the WITH ME is good and something I use with my dogs myself. Using positive training doesn't mean just stand there with a treat in your hands and say "oh, but he doesn't listen to me when he does that". In this case, I would call back a dog AS SOON AS A MAN APPEARS and therefore no reaction happened yet and keep feeding the dog until the man has gone - and if that's 200 times during a walk so be it. Men will then become a cue to come back and collect the reward. That has two effects: first of all, it stops the dog going up to the men (replacing one behaviour with another) as the dog is going back to the owner and secondly it changes the dog's perception of men from "I don't like that one" to "oh, another man, yipee, where's my treat".

 

This is the bit I didn't go into detail, prefering that Kathy ask for the info... which is at the bottom of my original post...

 

doggie mum... chill man, you're all stressed... be calm, we're all here to help, right? My visual thoughts were meant to be amusing... was just sharing my humour with you...

[Kathyw]

DLMcKay I will pm you. Thank you.

 

We did the same thing with our Blueboy and it took just three weeks to stop him from his unacceptable behaviour of attacking any dog that came within his sight. Blue would try and take on as many as were willing and Ray got bitten by other dogs while trying to stop the fights.

I do not see this as punishment, I am going to ask DLMcKay for her advice on the 'with me' as CB is very receptive to commands to come to me, I have also spoken to another Fugees who gave me some excellent advice and made me think of something that I hadn't before considered.

 

I have no intentions to seek a behaviourist for CB, I have no faith in them so would be creating a block to start with.

[traceymcl]

I just had this visual image of a freaked out barking dog, with some hapless member of the public pinned against a wall and the owner ineffectively clapping hands and calling in a squeaky voice "here Fido, look, I've got some cheese!"

 

I know that this is mostly tongue in cheek but this is exactly the kind of thing that I often hear from people who simply don't understand how to use positive training methods.

 

I've lost count of the number of times I've had people say to me 'oh but I've tried treats and they don't work.' What they mean is that they have tried waiting until their dog is wound up into a frenzy then have waved a few treats under the dog's nose which the dog of course, takes no notice of. That is not using reward based training at all.

 

I have no intentions to seek a behaviourist for CB, I have no faith in them so would be creating a block to start with.

 

I understand that completely. I felt exactly the same way for a long time - Cal's problems were caused by poor advice from a behaviourist and then the whole situation was made a lot worse by the same training club. It took me a long time to regain any kind of faith in dog professionals - even now I will only ask advice from people once I've seen them handle their own dogs and been impressed by the way they do it.

 

Luckily for me, I now have some good friends who are absolutely amazing with dogs so I can get lots and lots of help and advice when I need it.

 

We did the same thing with our Blueboy and it took just three weeks to stop him from his unacceptable behaviour of attacking any dog that came within his sight. Blue would try and take on as many as were willing and Ray got bitten by other dogs while trying to stop the fights.

 

I hope you will be more considerate of other people in sorting out CB's problems. After all, I'm sure you'd be the first one complaining if somebody allowed a dog they knew to be aggressive to attack one of yours. You - like most people - would be extremely pissed off that the dog hadn't been kept on a lead if it was likely to attack passing dogs.

 

I would be furious if somebody allowed their dog to attack mine just so they could then punish the dog in the hope it wouldn't do it again. I expect people with dog aggressive dogs to make sure that their dog is simply never in the position to attack my dogs.

 

Equally, I expect to be able to walk around without being harassed by dogs running up to me barking.

 

I don't mind people making mistakes but I would not consider somebody letting a dog they know to be reactive around people off lead where there are lots of people a mistake. I'd consider it to be extremely irresponsible.

 

At the end of the day, though, you don't have to take anybody's advice. You, Ray and CB are the ones who will live with the consequences of your decisions not any of us.

 

Tracey xx

[JoC]

I'm a bit hesitant to post because I don't think what people say will make a difference. It seems that you're only listening to people who agree with you

 

I feel so sorry for CB, I truly believe the way you are dealing with this is cruel. He is frightened and you are only willing to look at things that punish him for his fear. I know you don't see locking him in the car away from his family as punishment, but if it wasn't an aversive thing to do, why would you expect it to work?

 

It makes perfect sense that his problems wouldn't be evident immediately, it takes dogs time to settle into new homes and get confident enough to use aggression.

 

I'm sorry you've experienced bad things with behaviourists, but please bear in mind a lot of people who call themselves behaviourists aren't. I'd be very interestetd to hear what advice turned a resource guarding dog into people aggressive, I would assume it would be a punishment based approach. Even good advice from good behaviourists wont work if owners don't follow it through. I see a lot of people for training that don't practice between classes, they expect once a week to be enough to have a trained dog.

 

I want to make a point about reward based training, 'positive' does not mean 'permissive'. I expect a lot from my dogs, and have to be consistent to achieve what I want.

 

I have had problems with Charlie (towards other dogs) and at first through seeing a bad trainer I used punishment (a water spray) which made the problem 100 times worse. It's taken me a long time getting him over that, and making improvements. He's now able to greet other dogs politely and will ignore the majority of dogs that ignore him. I know his triggers and can read his body language to prevent it happening. Once he has a reaction, it's too late. I don't use any punishment at all with him any more, and he's coming on in leaps and bonds. We'll never be able to totally rebuild our relationship after using aversives on him, and if I could go back in time and change it I wouldn't hesitate.

 

It makes me so upset to see the opportunity you've been given to take a scared dog and use kindness and love to help him develop confidence. You've got a clean slate and haven't ruined the trust in your relationship yet, it breaks my heart that the opportunity will be wasted

[LukaBeama]

From what I've read it sounds as if you won't listen to any advice you don't agree with anyway but if the rescue I got my dogs from thought I was trying to treat their aggression issues in the manner you have described without using a lunge line or muzzle then I think they would be so concerned about my potentially dangerous behaviour that they would insist I changed actions

 

It's up to you what you choose to do but it isn't fair to put other people in danger or cause them alarm by being confronted by an offlead, unmuzzled, barking/lunging dog

Edited September 12, 2006 by LukaBeama

[~Canis-Equus~]

Sorry, i have to agree entirely with what Tracey, Jo and LukaBeama have just said, especially Tracey and Jo's points about positive training not being 'permissive'.

 

If you allow a dog to get into a position where he can do the behaviour you dont want then you have already failed, you have missed the boat in pre-empting and preventing that behaviour. Sorry if that is harsh but thems the facts.

 

Whether you allow the dog to begin to carry out that unwanted behaviour and then go on to use reward based or punishment based methods, you have missed the point at which doing something, anything would be useful or constructive.

 

However i fear you have already decided to do as you please, at least you have decided (i hope) not to use a punishment collar, to be honest citronella collars are only marginally better than shock collars.

 

Em

[Gundogsgalore]

 

 

I'm sorry you've experienced bad things with behaviourists, but please bear in mind a lot of people who call themselves behaviourists aren't.

 

erm Jo - Kathy says she has never seen a behaviourist with one of her dogs, and never intends to.... so she has no experiences with behaviourists, good or bad.

Kathy - I cannot believe that you can actually believe that taking the dog back to the car after he has "misbehaved" and leaving him in it on his own, will make him "realise what he has done" ..... are you serious ?

I expect everyone else knows but I don't - what breed is CB ? how long have you had him and where did you get him from ? perhaps the rescue that homed him to you would want to help you with these new behaviours ? do you know much of his history ? I certainly know with my two rescue lurchers that they develop new behaviours for a long time after they came to live with me - Gracie is still unpacking her bags shall we say.

I think you owe it to this dog to be kind and try and understand why he is doing this.... dogs are not by nature spiteful or nasty - and certainly not without reason - so if you could find it in your heart to understand him, rather than just punishing him, I am sure you will develop a far better bond in the end. Maybe you should consider as the others have said, keeping him on a long line and muzzling him (while you are retraining him) so that there is no danger to anyone....

Edited September 12, 2006 by Gundogsgalore

[dlmckay]

Groan... my final words on this...

 

I'll help Kathy with the WITH ME command - I've used it successfully with my own neurotic, fear aggressive (but only sometimes) completely unreadable, but stupidly gorgeous dog - and I believe that pre-empting is far better than anything else.

 

Anyhoo, I'm going to leave you with a couple of thoughts and you can rant away happily - I won't be reading, so go for your life

 

1. The government sets a speed limit. You speed, you get a ticket. You do not get praised for staying within the speed limit, however. Do you still speed?

 

2. Dog is slightly hungry and has figured out that if he barks outrageously at somone, his handler will bring out the treats... does he still bark?

 

Nothing wrong with a little firm, insistent commanding of your dog - we should use this on our children too incidentally... animals do understand consequences - provided the consequence happens immediately.

 

Peace out!

[JoC]

1. The government sets a speed limit. You speed, you get a ticket. You do not get praised for staying within the speed limit, however. Do you still speed?

 

Yes. As do a lot of other people, just not in front of speed cameras.

 

2. Dog is slightly hungry and has figured out that if he barks outrageously at somone, his handler will bring out the treats... does he still bark?

 

But that's not reward based training, that's bad training. It's not the same thing. What should happen is dog sees scary person, turns to handler and gets treats. You dont' give treats for barking, you accept that if the dog has barked you've messed up.

 

Nobody is saying that consistency is a bad thing, that would be stupid. Or being firm, I'm firm with my dogs at times, but not when they are afraid.

 

Can't understand why you wouldn't check the replies though, I do find it odd you wont even listen to other peoples points of view. I think I've learned more from people I disagree with than those who I agree with. If nothing else it gives me something to think about

[K9Fran]

Groan... my final words on this...

 

 

1. The government sets a speed limit. You speed, you get a ticket. You do not get praised for staying within the speed limit, however. Do you still speed?

 

Yes, sometimes (actually, I've never had a speeding ticket yet, but I like the warm and fuzzy self riteous feeling I get that at least I am being 'good' some of the time) But maybe fewer people would speed if there was a good chance of getting some reward for being caught driving under the speed limit?

 

2. Dog is slightly hungry and has figured out that if he barks outrageously at somone, his handler will bring out the treats... does he still bark?

Possibly, it depends on the timing of the owner/trainer - a good trainer will ask the dog to do something else to get the treats, even if it's just give the human being a brief second of attention to start with and then build on it.

 

Treat your children like animals, and your animals like children.........

[mum24dog]

Kathy - I cannot believe that you can actually believe that taking the dog back to the car after he has "misbehaved" and leaving him in it on his own, will make him "realise what he has done" ..... are you serious ?

 

I think Kathy is mistakenly assuming that because her dog has stopped barking at people when out at the front of the house as a result of being put back into the house immediately when he barked, then putting him back in the car if he barks at someone when out will work as well.

What isn't taken into account is the delay between the behaviour and reaching the car. Even a couple of minutes is a lifetime in training terms. Absolutely no connection between cause and effect in the dog's mind.

Not at all the same thing as was done at home.

And I agree entirely with everyone who said that he should not be allowed to bark in the first place. Most dogs will give signals in the way of body language that they are unhappy. That is the time to preempt the unwanted behaviour and reward the dog for coming back.

 

Pam

[Melp]

For whatever reason, Kathy doesn't want to see a behaviourist with CB. That's her choice and although it's not necessarily something others agree with with, he's her dog and she knows him best. Personally I would take him to one and Kathy knows this, but none of us can make that decision for her. Some of the replies on this thread have been downright rude. No matter what you think [and Yes I know she asked for advice] you don't have to be aggressive.

 

Kathy, a lot of the replies make sense, rethink the behaviourist idea, I'm certain someone on here can recommend a good one [perhaps a woman if he's scared of men?]. Also, I hope Diana can help you