Training Book

[akitas]

As my last adopted rescue dog is a Border Collie, I went out and bought a few books about Border Collies and how to train them.

I bought several books and one was the Border Collie book by Barbara Sykes.

 

She keeps saying in her book, that she doesn't believe in rewarding with treats or toys, the dog shoulr respect you because of your acting as a respectable pack leader.

I was wondering how I do that.

First I don't have puppies. All my dogs are rescue dogs and quite set in their ways.

I trained my Akita up to obedience level, but don't think she would do all that if no food were involved.

She is quite food orientated.

Now, after training her for more than a year, she would do things even without food, just because she is so used to it.

 

I just don't understand how I can convince my dog to work with me/for me out of sheer respect.

 

The Border Collie I adopted is very toy orientated. He loves playing with the frisbee outdoors, if we don't play he usually wanders around, not running off though. I can get his attention when I call his name, but without having a toy or pretending to have something interesting he would sometimes be reluctant to come back (saying that I only have him for a short time now)

 

Anyway, the whole point of my question is, if somebody can explain to me how Barbara's training method works. And if I can apply it to rescue dogs as well.

I am grateful for any opinion.

 

Thanks.

[Shaun Jackson]

Hi Akitas,

 

Welcome to the world of rescue border collies. I too have Barbara Sykes book and I have read it. You are allowed to disagree with her if you like !?

 

I find that my collie responds especially well to toy motivation and food and also clicker training.

 

In my opinion you should keep on with your toys and your food - you will develop a much closer bond and your dog will learn new things faster because they are fun. (Try a clicker also).

 

Good Luck

 

Shaun

[border collie]

Thats funny, I always seem to get instant respect by having the treats to give out

[pboae]

I have a lot of respect for my immediate boss at work. I pretty much always do as he asks, although I sometimes drag my heels if I disagree or don't understand why . But if my pay stopped appearing in my bank account every month then respect or not, I'd stop showing up for work. I don't see why it should be any different for dogs. It's completely unnatural for an animal to exert itself for nothing.

 

If toys help your training then use them, it makes training fun and helps motivate you both. It's good to be able to eventually phase them out a little so you don't need them every time, in case you need a recall, etc and don't have a toy with you, but other than that, pick and choose the bits you like from the books and take the old fashioned pack leader/dominance stuff with a pinch of salt.

[akitas]

Thanks for your replies.

Would be interesting to talk to her and find out how it works.

I stay with my system then as it already worked quite well with 1 dog.

 

I like you comparisons pboae

 

Thanks for all your answers!

[Lindsay]

It is possible to not use food in training but, I would say only with dogs who are truly bred to work with man such as the BC. Generally if you don't use food rewards, it's easier to slip down the slope of using "punishment" either mild or severe with most breeds, as they may not value your voice and pats and strokes that much, certainly the more independent breeds would not.

 

It's also much harder to show them what you do want from them.

 

I know of some great BC trainers (Mary Ray, Anne Bussey) who use clicker and therefore food rewards; they've reached the top in their sports with their dogs (Obedience and working trials) so that illlustrates that it's perfectly possible to train BC s using modern training methods with food and still have a great relationship and a happy dog..

 

I guess it's personal choice at the end of the day, but i prefer to make my life easy and use food and toys as well as my voice, praise, fun, pats etc for rewards.

 

 

Good luck

[akitas]

Though my newest addition is a Border Collie, I can't say that he would do anything for me without motivation. Might be a bit too much to ask for as we just have him 2 weeks now.

My Akita would now, but as I said before, not if I hadn't trained her with food before hand.

I think I stick with what has worked for me once.

WOuld be great to find a dog who just does things for you out of respect, but saying that, not even my children do that

 

Thanks for all your answers.

[cycas]

I have had collie x's that would do stuff for you just because they desperately wanted to please, loved praise and would consider a frown a punishment.

 

We had only ever had collie types in my family, so it was quite a culture shock when I adopted a greyhound and she was not in the slightest bit bothered what I thought about anything!

 

I had to learn the fine art of bribery then. But I don't see why you shouldn't bribe a collie: just that you are perhaps a bit less likely to really need to.

[akitas]

Thanks cycas, my collie has no intention to please me. He is more interested that I please him and keep throwing balls, frisbees etc

 

I am quite happy bribing my dogs.

[JoC]

This is a bit of a gripe of mine, reward based training is NOT bribery!

 

It seems like bribery at first (if you do this I'll give you a biscuit) but you phase out the food early on so it's a reward for doing it well. they don't need to see the food in order to do it, in the same way that your boss doesn't need to wave a tenner in front of your nose to make you work!

 

Having said that, sometimes dogs do think the food is part of the behaviour, they go off environmental cues as well (mummy stands there, holds a piece of food and says something, I sit, I get the food) so the word isn't the cue, the whole picture is. If bribery works for you, and you need a treat to get the dog to do something, it's up to you if you're happy with that or not.

 

I just hate seeing it as a reason why reward based training is rubbish, cos it's not!!

[K9Fran]

Let's not forget it's reward based TRAINING we are talking about - once the behaviour is installed, we don't need the reward..... Simply *doing* the behaviour often becomes sufficient reward in itself....

Edited June 23, 2006 by K9Fran

[gooster]

I use food to train my boys, and *generally* if I have food, they'll do anything for me. When I first began teaching the boys flyball, I needed to use food. However now they know what to do, the behaviour itself is self rewarding, as they enjoy it so much. If I go down to the flyball ring and forget food, if I have Charliegoo with me, there's no problem, as he doesn't tend to taste his reward anyway I'd hope that any other training, once the dog knows what they are doing would become just as self rewarding, as if the dog doesn't enjoy it's training, then something is going a bit wrong. Both of mine still race to the door whenever I pick up my van keys, as they think that I am going to flyball or obedience. I still use food, for both of these activities - I don't need to (especially with Charliegoo), but I know that he would be equally satisfied with a heap of fuss and praise (he's a collie x scottie).

 

At the end of the day, I tend to take what books say in, but if they don't agree with the way I do things, but my dogs still seem happy, then I'll put what the books says aside and go with my instinct, after all, I know my dogs better than anyone