cycas Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 Have just being trying to teach Azure a few basic things with the clicker, and the poor little soul looks so baffled and worried. He probably isn't helped by having Mollydog bouncing round trying every behaviour she knows (plus one: she did 'roach' in an attempt to attract my attention, which she has never done before) but I can't shut her out: she can hear the clicker and she screams at the top of her voice to be let back in (I knew I should have called her Violet Elizabeth...) Any tips for reassuring Az that this is supposed to be fun? He isn't scared of the clicker, I think he's worried because he thinks I want him to do something and he can't work it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 Are you trying to shape him? Try luring him first if you can, easy things, to give him confidence. For shaping, try "101 things to do with a box" to give confidence - you just get a large box and click him for anything he does - pawing it, lying by it, etc. Lindsay x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 We found with Sophie that she got quite worried when we first started clicker training. I think she thought she was meant to be doing something, but wasn't sure what. We found she was much better at motion type things (less time to get worried maybe) - so we started on targetting and heel work. Once she was more confident, we moved on to more static things like sits and downs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted May 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 We were doing sits and downs (he can kind of do them, but only really by copying Mollydog, so I thought some practice might help). I'll try the box thing (if I can stop Mollydog from nicking it) and some heelwork. Really I just thought they would enjoy a bit of diversion as it's now too hot to walk in the middle of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanu Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 Does he understand what the click means? When I start with a new dog I scatter treats on the floor and click every time the dog goes to eat one (also improves your timing). Then when all the treats have been eaten I click once, if the dog looks for a treat I know they've *got it* if not I'll scatter some more, or maybe click then feed at treat to make it more obvious. Once you are sure he understands that a click means a reward you really need to give him all your attention so you don't miss anything. I'm afraid this means shutting out the other dogs. Can you shut Mollydog behind a baby gate so she can see you, but not interfere? Or in a crate or similar. You need to prevent her interfering but you need to be able to reward her quickly for *watching without commenting* eventually you will work towards one dog in a down stay in the same room while you work the other - if you like I prefer to shut the non-working dog out so they can't interfere. Initially I would teach Azure what the click means, and reward Mollydog if she is quiet, in a kind of one for you and one for you type manner, eventually only rewarding Mollydog for longer and longer periods of quiet. Obviously the ultimate reward for her would be the opportunity to do some training herself When shaping with a hesitant dog its important to click for small things to give the confidence - a dog never just stands there doing nothing, they breathe, twitch ears, quickly look to the side etc etc you need to be able to click and reward all these small movements at first to encourage your dog to give you more. I usually find it helpful to use a prop for shaping first timers - remember to watch and click for the first nosy "ooh whats thats Mum" look at the object, then your clicking for looking, moving towards, smaking with a paw, a nose touch - anything, but if he's really hesitant you need to be clicking for the glances, place your treats so that you are almost forcing him to approach the object, so if you are using a cone for instance I would throw the treats away from me to the otherside of the cone, he goes to treat and eats it, will probably walk towards you if he's unsure but I can almost guarantee you he will glance at the cone on the way - you need to be clicking that look! Sorry that was an essay! Have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoC Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Could you use the clicker sessions to teach Mollydog a reliable down stay? You can start off by putting her in a down and going to the othe side of the room, getting a treat from a bowl and returning to her to give the treat. If she moves, you say 'uh oh' and put the treat back in the bowl and try again. Then when she's got it, you could take one treat from the bowl, feed it to Azure, and then go and get Molly another one. Build up the interaction with Azure until Molly understands that she will get her reward after you've finished. When you're with Azure, take a couple of treats over to Molly every now and again. Don't release her with a big fuss, or she'll be lying there anticipating the release and wont be relaxed, the rewards come while she's staying, not afterwards. Perhaps if you do that, it might be an idea to use a different click for Azure, maybe a code word to start with? A click might be too distracting for Mollydog until she realises that she has to wait calmly when it's not her turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted May 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 OK, I made some sardine biscuits, and I gave Mollydog a juicy bone to keep her busy (luckily, Mollydog likes juicy bones more than anything, whereas Azure prefers sardine biscuits). I think I should be able to get her to just lie still while I work with Azure (she gets tired out very quickly by training (tiny greyhound brain!) but I thought I'd try just with him on his own first. I tried scattering treats and clicking, then feeding a treat right after a click. He seemed happy with that, so I tried getting him to target, and he got all stressy and worried again. He was OK to start with, then he seemed to work out that I was clicking for nosing the stick, and it freaked him out and he wouldn't look at me and went and hid under the table. (He is an odd dog. I got him a new raised feeder today, and that required much tiptoeing round and alarmed looks before he would actually eat out of the dratted thing.) I'm not sure about this 'dogs never do nothing' thing. Mollydog in particularly has this amazing ability to stay absolutely motionless for minutes on end without even twitching! It's really frustrating sometimes: I really wonder if she has gone to sleep standing up with her eyes open... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Reading this I wonder if clicker training is apropriate for Azure at the moment? It is a great way of training but it is not the only way and it doesn't suit some dogs for a variety of reasons. Try teaching sits and downs the old fashioned way and see if he/she takes to that better, it may serve to build the confidence enough to begin clicker training in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 (edited) I think for this dog you may be going too fast Try clicking for behaviours that he already knows to give confidence, for instance a Sit (click as his bottom hits the floor) and do this lots to build up his knowledge that clicker training is fun If you are at all in doubt though, yes, leave the clicker alone for a while and use luring to teach things ... Good luck! Lindsay x Edited May 15, 2006 by Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted May 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 I honestly don't think it's the clicker he's alarmed by - it seems to be the fact that I am looking at him, expecting something! I tried luring him, and got the same sort of thing - he went for it a couple of times, then it all got too much and he had to go away and worry for a bit. I don't particularly need to teach him lots of tricks. I was hoping to just get him thinking it was fun to obey commands (specifically, recall : he is quite good at that, but he has that whole 'just a moment while I check this out' thing going on). But I'm starting to think that the whole concept of deliberately being taught things is a bit stressful for him, so I might leave it a bit and let him just copy Mollydog. (very cute when they both sit in the kitchen door and give paw simultaneously for a biscuit!) He has only been here a month: perhaps in a few months time he will feel more confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamJade Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 I find that when clicker training one of the cats I have a tendency to stare at them and I have to really be aware of it to stop. So I stand there with a clicker watching avidly for the behaviour I want to capture and then having a session of dropping my gaze, blinking & yawning like mad to reassure them! Might it be the intensity of your stare that is off putting? Try the madly enthusiatic "Wow isn't this fun, let's play clicker" tone and then keep the session very short and simple. LOTS of calming signals, especially on recalls. One of my friends used to have trouble with his small dog unless he really crouched down and softened his voice. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanu Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 How long are you going for before you stop the session? How often are you clicking? I have found that to keep my dogs "in the game" I need to keep the reward rate up - much higher than you think usually, especially when shaping. I try to click at least every 5 secs to start with. If you think about it sitting there staring at your dog for 5 secs it's quite alot of time and probably quite intimidating to begin with. I also keep sessions very short. Khanu has real trouble concentrating for a long time - he loves training and I can keep going with him for an hour - but I have to break it down into miniture sessions within a session (I dont' actually usually train for an hour - it was a test to see how far I could push it, he went for longer than I could concentrate for). I tend to grab about 10 treats and have them in my hand with the clicker, we do some work then I turn my back and get some more treats - this gives Khanu the short break he needs, then I turn back and we go again. I don this maybe 4-6 times, then take a longer break to cut up the treats maybe or grab a drink, then repeat again. Like I said he can keep going like this for a hour - but he does love his training, Willow manages about 15-20mins before she starts slowing up. I always try and stop the session before they start slowing down, maybe with Azure try just 30secs - you could probably get in 7-10 clicks, then end it. Do this for lots of mini sessions during the day, gradually building up the time. Or do the 2 lures that he can cope with and stop at that, pretty soon he'll be able to manage 3 then 4 and you can go from there. Hang on in - sounds like he's just not quite sure what you want of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted September 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 I am delighted to report that I've just tried clicker training again with Az, and this time he really loved it! He was wagging and smiling and really happy about it. I think JoC was right, it was just too soon for him to be comfortable with it back in May, I think he perhaps wasn't properly settled then. I'm so proud of Mollydog too: we'd done 'down stays' before, but not when I wasn't concentrating on her but doing other things while she was staying. But she got the idea of only answering to commands addressed to her really quickly and waiting for me to go back to her - and what's more, so did Az. He started out just copying her every move, but I did manage to persuade him to listen to me and not just look at her after a bit. I shall have to think of more things to teach them together. Heel walking, perhaps: they are fairly good at that, but they do tend to get distracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoC Posted September 14, 2006 Report Share Posted September 14, 2006 Yay! Well done for persevering! Lucky dog doesn't know what fun is ahead of him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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