Crufts Winner Or A Dog Who Looks Like He Needs To See A Vet?

[blackmagic]

http://www.videxgsd.co.uk/crufts_2010__ruined.htm

[celeste]

As I'm sure you realise, good hip scores means he's got good hips, however odd his movement he's not in pain from them etc. It doesn't however guarantee he's healthy. CDRM for example is a problem in some German Shepherds, hard to diagnose, no testing for it, very unlikely to be picked up in a fit young dog, doesn't cause any pain or show up on xrays, even affect the dog until older. I'd be interested to know whether any ancestors of this dog have ever suffered it, or any other "back end issues", whether he does some years down the line etc

 

 

There's even some doubt now as to whether the current HD scheme is doing any good, the Uni of Pennsylvania has devised a new method of assessing hips, one of the concerns about the old method was that the laxity of the hips was being altered by the position the dogs hips were put in while it was being x rayed Penn Hip , apparently a lot of dogs who were passed on the old method are failing the Penn Hip.

 

 

[snow]

This isn't correct, a dog doesn't have to be a champion to be shown at Crufts. Qualifying is much easier than people imagine, for a young dog they don't have to win any class, just be placed in one class. It doesn't even matter how many are in the class i.e. if there are only two dogs in the class and they come second, that will still qualify them. It's not much harder for an adult dog and they don't have to be shown from puppyhood.

 

While I'm on the subject on popular misconceptions;

 

There is no such thing as a 'Crufts Champion' which is a phrase often used in the press.

A dog that wins at Crufts does not become a champion.

The prize money for the Best In Show winner is £100! This is considerably more than you get for a win at any other show.

 

I only know this stuff because I have a friend that shows her gordon setters, so I've asked her a bit about it over the years.

 

What makes you assume that I don't know about breed shows? I may not show these days but my initial involvement with the doggy world came from showing and handling dogs in the show ring admittedly that was decades ago but things haven't changed all that much. I agree with what you've posted but thats semantics designed to try and blow smoke at the issue - the fact remains to reach crufts the dogs must come up through the show ring btw I consider being placed in a breed show to be "winning". Either it needs to come 1st 2nd or 3rd in a show where CC's are on offer or it has been Best Of Breed in a Premier Open Show where at least 3 breeds are represented or it has won or been reserve Best In Show (or Best Puppy In Show) at a general open show or it's got it's stud book number which again comes via winning through in other classes/groups. Thus the dog or puppy has been before a judge and compared to others of it's breed. The show world is highly competitive so just how often do you think that only 2 dogs or pups will have been entered in a class where there are crufts qualifications on offer?

 

Take a look at this: (note: this isn't the dog we're talking about but is an example of the dogs in the breed rings these days)

 

 

or this one:

 

 

As many here know my first breed was GSD's my own dog had a pedigree as long as my arm, he also had a stud book listing, yet he was cow hocked, back then that wasn't considered "desirable" and thus even had I wished to show him (and being a long haired dog I couldn't anyway) then he would never have won nor did I ever breed from him - cow hocked though he was his hocks in no way were as utterly grotesque as the current crop of dogs in the show ring.

 

As for "prize money" - if breeders were in it for the prize money then pedigree shows would have died out years ago as would crufts it has nothing to do with the prize money on offer; it's the kudos and the amount of money a breeder will make from the stud fees or pups of a dog with group wins or CC's on it's pedigree.

 

It's not just the non GSD breeder who thinks that whats happened to the breed is wrong...

 

"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, this must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs.

 

"In contradistinction to working and utility breeding is 'sport' breeding, which produces a temporary advance but is always followed by deterioration, for it is not done for the sake of the DOG, nor does it make him more useful, it is done for the vanity of the breeder and the subsequent purchaser."

My main 'warning-cry' concerns itself with the direction of the breed, which many breeders – many novices – still subscribe to, a direction that would lead us off the beaten path, far off of our breed goal; toward breed ruin.

 

"In all my articles, lectures, and judges reports of the last few years, I have desperately tried to point out that we must cling to the breed standard of the working dog, and I gave reasons why we must do so – as it was once laid down, as a model of the breed’s design. I have emphasized over and over again that we should not get overly engrossed in details of outward characteristics, even if they are ever so attractive, when, for the breeding value of the dog, he must be based entirely and decisively upon the totality of hard constitution, good health, endurance, authentic working structure and stable temperament.

 

"The vision, the understanding of this standard, is thus sometimes lost. Many young fanciers have unfortunately hardly ever seen correct conformation in respect to these dogs. They become intoxicated with appearance which so often has so little in common with the working dog as he is supposed to be. In this case, the only thing that helps is trusted faith in the system, until one’s pondering leads to eventual understanding. The belief in what is well meant – the thoughtful suggestions and guiding principles – are for the welfare of the breed’s future.

 

"As with so many breeds, sport and fad breeding led to more severe evidence of natural traits, and therefore to bad breeding situations that had nothing more in common with working ability.

 

"This may seem nice to the faddist, however, for the true lover of Nature, who doesn’t engage in matters based on eye appeal, it appears as a strange caricature.

 

"Over-sized, massiveness, height, racing ability, straight front or tucked up racing dog body would be for the shepherd an adverse perception leading to the death of the breed. And actually, some of our dogs and especially those who receive applause among the novices resemble the racing dog type in his over-sized, narrowness, tucked up appearance and effemination. The Borzoi, who hunts the wolf on the Russian prairies does not look like this; he is still a correct, rugged fellow. He who looks around at dog shows, pages through dog magazines, will find often enough that there are still a few other breed’s destinies which are threatened, that is, they are about to step out of their breed type because they are not bred upon a breed goal, but rather upon an imaginary 'beauty concept'."

 

Max von Stephanitz, the “father” of the German Shepherd Dog, writing in 1929

[blackmagic]

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/11-humiliated

 

.........................................A KC spokesman confirmed that a GSD was excluded from the Good Citizen ring.

“This decision was taken upon the advice of the Crufts vet who felt that the dog showed abnormality in the hindquarters,†she said. “We are dedicated to ensuring that Crufts is a celebration of healthy dogs, and in a display ring, where there is no judge to make an executive decision, it is particularly important that the vet takes the responsibility for ensuring that all dogs are sound representatives of their breed.â€

[celeste]

Those two clips are shocking, you can clearly see those dog's do not have solid rear end's or good movement, the first dog is scuffing his feet ffs, I really can't see how the breed club can defend that conformation, and the judges who put those dogs up should be booted out imo, if any of my dog's walked like that I would have them at the vet

Although judges should be following the breed standard guidelines, there's always going to be an element of personal preference, it's just human nature. In SBT's for instance, the type of dog that was doing all the winning in the 70's is quite different to the type that's preferred today, I much prefer the old type, which was more athletic looking and not so cloddy or over loaded at the shoulders like the ones who win today, the breed standard hasn't changed to any great degree, it's just personal choice on the part of the judges. I also wonder if judges tend to put up dogs which are the same type as their own breeding ( if they breed the type they judge), human nature being what it is, I feel they must.

[greys mum]

According to a work mate who shows her dogs. (not GSD's) It's not so much what the dog looks like, more about who you know and if your face fits!! Obviously if the dog was completely off the breed standard, I wouldn't have thought that this would apply.

 

Don't know how true that bit of information is. But there does seem to be an old mates clique about some of the shows/breeds.

[BilRed]

What makes you assume that I don't know about breed shows? I may not show these days but my initial involvement with the doggy world came from showing and handling dogs in the show ring admittedly that was decades ago but things haven't changed all that much. I agree with what you've posted but thats semantics designed to try and blow smoke at the issue - the fact remains to reach crufts the dogs must come up through the show ring btw I consider being placed in a breed show to be "winning". Either it needs to come 1st 2nd or 3rd in a show where CC's are on offer or it has been Best Of Breed in a Premier Open Show where at least 3 breeds are represented or it has won or been reserve Best In Show (or Best Puppy In Show) at a general open show or it's got it's stud book number which again comes via winning through in other classes/groups. Thus the dog or puppy has been before a judge and compared to others of it's breed. The show world is highly competitive so just how often do you think that only 2 dogs or pups will have been entered in a class where there are crufts qualifications on offer?

 

I assumed that you didn't know about showing because you said;

 

Bear in mind that to reach Crufts these dogs have to be Champions and win through from puppyhood - that means long before they reach the Best In Breed ring at Crufts they have been chosen as the best representative of their breed many times over

 

and yes I did think it was odd for you to say something that was factually incorrect as you are generally very well informed but dogs do not have to be champions to reach Crufts nor do they necessarily have to win many times over. Coming from GSDs then you may have the impression that class numbers are all sizable but I can assure you that is not the case in many breeds. If you look at registration figures for the different breeds you will see that whereas GSD registrations are between 10,000 and 15,000 a year many breeds register less than 200. My comments were not intended to be specifically about GSDs although in hindsight I guess they could have been taken that way. I do point out where my source of information is from but that is in a later posting. It was in no way an attempt to blow smoke over any issue, I have made no comment on the dog under discussion. I have said that I don't intend to set myself up as a defender of showing but I have tried to correct inaccurate statements about it, not because I want to get at you personally or make myself out to know more than everyone else but because there are so many misunderstanding about the show world outside of it and it doesn't help the debates about some of the issues involved if they are not based on a good understanding of the topic.

 

I know which one I believe but why did your friend say / do you think they want to bother with these paltry prized dog shows, go on to become Crufts "champions" then - for the £100? For the pleasure of some "expert" judge deciding they have the best dog or for the money they can make out of saying my pups are born of / descended from a Crufts "champion" / winner ?

 

I have no idea what it is you mean to say here Ian.

[Ian]

I have no idea what it is you mean to say here Ian.

 

Well, you appeared to suggest below that your friend was saying the prize was only £100, presumably therefore they can't be doing it for the money, and possibly imply that getting to & winning Crufts was no big deal ?

 

This isn't correct, a dog doesn't have to be a champion to be shown at Crufts. Qualifying is much easier than people imagine, for a young dog they don't have to win any class, just be placed in one class. It doesn't even matter how many are in the class i.e. if there are only two dogs in the class and they come second, that will still qualify them. It's not much harder for an adult dog and they don't have to be shown from puppyhood.

 

While I'm on the subject on popular misconceptions;

 

There is no such thing as a 'Crufts Champion' which is a phrase often used in the press.

A dog that wins at Crufts does not become a champion.

The prize money for the Best In Show winner is £100! This is considerably more than you get for a win at any other show.

 

I only know this stuff because I have a friend that shows her gordon setters, so I've asked her a bit about it over the years.

 

I was suggesting (as has Snow later) that although the Crufts prize may be only £100 and smaller shows less (quite possibly wouldn't cover expenses) it's nevertheless highly competitive amongst those interested in showing - because there is much more kudos & therefore money to be gained in the sale of puppies descended from show and particularly Crufts winners, stud fees etc.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Ian

[BilRed]

Well, you appeared to suggest below that your friend was saying the prize was only £100, presumably therefore they can't be doing it for the money, and possibly imply that getting to & winning Crufts was no big deal ?

 

I was suggesting (as has Snow later) that although the Crufts prize may be only £100 and smaller shows less (quite possibly wouldn't cover expenses) it's nevertheless highly competitive amongst those interested in showing - because there is much more kudos & therefore money to be gained in the sale of puppies descended from show and particularly Crufts winners, stud fees etc.

 

My friend wasn't saying anything, I was. I put in the comment about the prize money as a surprising fact as mostly people, same as I did, assume that that there is a large cash prize at the end of it as there is with most big competitions.

 

Many people in this country that have been in showing for a while don't regard qualifying for Crufts as a big deal, many that qualify don't bother to go. People overseas and new to showing do because it is such a big show and has that reputation. Winning Crufts obviously is a big deal as winning any major competition is, I don't see why that is a problem. People are capable of being highly competitive without being unpleasant about it, although not this years winners owners it seems, even so that doesn't mean they treat their dog badly or would put money ahead of healthy dogs. People show for all kinds of reasons, many have nothing to do with money, kudos or ambition. Being a pet dog and a show dog are not mutually exclusive. People who show do not necessarily breed, even the ones that are successful.

[Ian]

I don’t think anyone (and certainly not I) has said it is a problem or that there is anything wrong with showing (or even responsible breeding) in general. What was being questioned is whether the German Shepherd who has won best of breed (and others like him) are really just that or whether they have an obvious and fundamental problem in their shape & movement.

 

The Kennel Club and German Shepherd breeders appear to be at loggerheads over this too.

 

 

 

Obviously both Carol Keen, owner of Clokellys Lagos and David Payne of Videx, whose comments are cited above are breeders. She is showing, he is also a judge. At present it’s a matter of opinion whether this dog (or any with similar shape & movement) "is right" / will prove healthy throughout his life or the money is important in the dispute etc.

 

This clip refers to 2008 NOT this years winner - though Clokellys Lagos is actually a descendant of Zamp Von Thermodos - and includes a vets comments on the problem.

 

 

[celeste]

Judges like that man on the clip really shouldn't be allowed to judge, he clearly knows nothing about the healthy movement of a dog, how can he stand there and disagree with that vet !. Notice when they questioned him he did make a distinction between the dog/frog GSD being more correct according to the breed standard than as a healthy working dog, doesn't that suggest the standard needs chucking out.