greyhound pal Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I am finding this whole thing very hard to understand in terms of 'where did it all go so wrong' and 'why did it all go so wrong' and more recently understanding the actions of her parents, which to me seem so alien and wrong and I am very confused. ... I am not sure about my families access rights to my niece during this period. I presume they have them. My SIL's take on it is that she won't make contact at all and that it is up to my niece to come to her. In the meantime she has cleared out her room. In part because SS's asked for Rachel's belongings to give to the foster mum and in part because she, and I can only guess at this, because she wanted to have some sort of closure on this. All of my nieces belongings bar those being sent to her are now in the once computer room downstairs. Her room upstairs has now become a study. I personally find this very upsetting as does my Mum, greatly. To us it means they have completely washed their hands of her and accepted the situation that she's not coming back and may well never come back. I know that she has been apalling and I know that for my brother it is a very hard thing to get over what she did but to me she is still a child at 15 years old and she has effectively lost her family. Can I just say that losing your child like this (and thats whats happened) is your worst nightmare multiplied by one hundred. Even as a parent you cannot imagine what this is like. Until it happens to you. Its like a death. Sounds dreadful but its true. But its a death where you can't mourn and can't have a funeral and can't do anything. You face the fact that you have failed as a parent. You have people who have no idea (smug parents and childless people in particular are harder on you) what you have put into this child judging you and telling you where you've gone wrong. I was lucky that I was helped through it by some very special people. The one person who should have been there for me, wasn't. You are powerless and go from angry to utter love to begging to confusion. Constantly. You don't eat and sleep. When you do sleep, its dreaming about them. You bring this child into the world. You nurse it, you raise it, you try so hard to instill good morals and respect, dignity, compassion into this child. You love your child so much. Then one day (in my case) they tell you they hate you and don't want to live with you any more, let alone even speak or see you again. They then move out. It leads you to darker places than you ever believe you are capable of going. It drives you to despair and you dream of turning back time and constantly beat your self up. You start to believe that there is one way out because you can't bear the pain. Meanwhile you have to function because no one will see you as 'bereaved' parent but a failed one so you have to carry on and internalise all tehse feelings. Its horrific. I took some months to get to your SIL's stage. Its the anger part - where its easier to block them out than keep going over and over and over it again. Its easier to pretend they dont' exist than to live in the reality. What I'm saying is that its a hard time for you but your SIL is only dealing with it the way she knows how. And should you have contact with her, its only a reminder of what she's lost and can't have Its an awful situ but rightly or wrongly I believe that one important lesson teens should learn when they are this way is tough love. Certainly I think I went very wrong by not making my daughter feel bad when she did things which were wrong. Anyway I'm off now because I'm all emotional again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhound pal Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 What I'm saying is that its a hard time for you but your SIL is only dealing with it the way she knows how. And should you have contact with her, its only a reminder of what she's lost and can't have ETA: this doesn't mean I don't think you should see her but perhaps see her and try to act as an intermediary - although I can almost guarantee your SIL will tell you she doesn't care for a while but she does. She just can't afford to let anyone, including herself, know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslass Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Its an awful situ but rightly or wrongly I believe that one important lesson teens should learn when they are this way is tough love. Certainly I think I went very wrong by not making my daughter feel bad when she did things which were wrong. I agree about the tough love, but demonstrating to the child that she doesn't exist - in her mother's eyes - by removing all evidence of her from the house? Isn't that a bit excessive? I'm probably guilty of being too amenable with my children; my daughter particularly. She was an easy (young) teenager, but she hated school - despite being academic - had no real friends in our tiny village, and left home at only 17 to go to Glasgow, to work for a year before university. She then made lots of friends, and blossomed. (And left me way behind.) We had a difficult few years; I felt bereft and rejected, and found to hard to reconcile this bold, confrontational young woman with the shy little girl I'd raised - I felt I'd let her down by staying somewhere which didn't suit either of us and I still wish I'd been strong enough to move both of us away, instead of her being the one who grew up and took charge of her life - but then, she might not have evolved into the human being that she is now. I've just deleted a lot of personal details from this post, but suffice to say, I kept the door open, and one day she needed me, and wasn't afraid to admit it. We're very close now and I admire her so much. This mother may well be depressed, or not coping; she may have had a sad upbringing herself. However, there's a limit to how many generations we can go back - at the moment, the person with the power is the mother; she can get support for herself, she has a home, a husband, and other family members around. The child has needs which are not being met, and to me, those take precedence over the mother's needs for the moment. I meant to add, greyhound pal - my heart goes out to you. Being a parent can be a sore business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooandboo Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Not knowing anyone involved this is only my take on the mother's behaviour. I don't feel that she's removing all trace of her daughter but more the experience they've just been through. It seems to me to be a knee jerk reaction and I'm sure that when things settle the room will be made hers again - but a new room with a fresh start and I'm sure that their relationship, with help, will start anew. I hope so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooandboo Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Just to add, personally I would respect the mother's wishes to hold back from contacting the daughter for the time being - if I were in this situation I would want my wishes respected. It doesn't sound from your post like she means for you to refrain from contacting her forever. The daughter will have support and it seems to me that some breathing space is needed on both sides - easy for me to say, I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslass Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Just to add, personally I would respect the mother's wishes to hold back from contacting the daughter for the time being - if I were in this situation I would want my wishes respected. But why should the mother dictate what other people can do? Aren't their relationships with the girl equally valid? She doesn't have exclusive rights over the daughter, surely? This sounds more like the mother telling other family members to make a choice between her and the girl. I think this mother needs help and support, yes, but I don't see why the child should be denied her grandmother's love, and continuing contact, meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Amanda But why should the mother dictate what other people can do? Aren't their relationships with the girl equally valid? She doesn't have exclusive rights over the daughter, surely? This sounds more like the mother telling other family members to make a choice between her and the girl. I think this mother needs help and support, yes, but I don't see why the child should be denied her grandmother's love, and continuing contact, meantime. I agree absolutely. I feel for everyone involved but there are many times I would have been so very glad of the support of a kind aunt or grandmother and I don't think the mother has the right to deny her daughter this, whatever has happened, she's still a child. There's nothing quite like the support of your family, at least a part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooandboo Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 But why should the mother dictate what other people can do? Aren't their relationships with the girl equally valid? She doesn't have exclusive rights over the daughter, surely? This sounds more like the mother telling other family members to make a choice between her and the girl. I think this mother needs help and support, yes, but I don't see why the child should be denied her grandmother's love, and continuing contact, meantime. I don't see it that way at all. The mother, father and daughter have been most hurt by the situation and initially, as I see it, need some space to lick their wounds, see where they went wrong, what they could have done to avoid the situation and for a short while at least should be allowed time to do so. She doesn't have exclusive rights to the daughter at all but from what Helen said, asked for them to *hold off for the moment* not forever. I don't think she's asking them to choose, just to stand back for a while which I think is reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslass Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Amanda I agree absolutely. I feel for everyone involved but there are many times I would have been so very glad of the support of a kind aunt or grandmother and I don't think the mother has the right to deny her daughter this, whatever has happened, she's still a child. There's nothing quite like the support of your family, at least a part of it. I couldn't agree more. I had a mother who was absent much of the time, and distant when she was around. If it hadn't been for an aunt and my beloved Grandpa, I don't know how I'd have managed. They didn't encourage me to complain - far from it - but they made it obvious, by their constant presence in my life, that I mattered. That made it possible for me to believe that I was worthy of someone's love. The parents in this sad tale still have each other and the comfort of their own home and family. The girl has none of this, and to take away her other relatives, no matter how temporarily is to me, verging on cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raiye Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Can I just say that losing your child like this (and thats whats happened) is your worst nightmare multiplied by one hundred. Even as a parent you cannot imagine what this is like. Until it happens to you. Its like a death. Sounds dreadful but its true. But its a death where you can't mourn and can't have a funeral and can't do anything. You face the fact that you have failed as a parent. You have people who have no idea (smug parents and childless people in particular are harder on you) what you have put into this child judging you and telling you where you've gone wrong. I was lucky that I was helped through it by some very special people. The one person who should have been there for me, wasn't. You are powerless and go from angry to utter love to begging to confusion. Constantly. You don't eat and sleep. When you do sleep, its dreaming about them. You bring this child into the world. You nurse it, you raise it, you try so hard to instill good morals and respect, dignity, compassion into this child. You love your child so much. Then one day (in my case) they tell you they hate you and don't want to live with you any more, let alone even speak or see you again. They then move out. It leads you to darker places than you ever believe you are capable of going. It drives you to despair and you dream of turning back time and constantly beat your self up. You start to believe that there is one way out because you can't bear the pain. Meanwhile you have to function because no one will see you as 'bereaved' parent but a failed one so you have to carry on and internalise all tehse feelings. Its horrific. I took some months to get to your SIL's stage. Its the anger part - where its easier to block them out than keep going over and over and over it again. Its easier to pretend they dont' exist than to live in the reality. What I'm saying is that its a hard time for you but your SIL is only dealing with it the way she knows how. And should you have contact with her, its only a reminder of what she's lost and can't have Its an awful situ but rightly or wrongly I believe that one important lesson teens should learn when they are this way is tough love. Certainly I think I went very wrong by not making my daughter feel bad when she did things which were wrong. Anyway I'm off now because I'm all emotional again. Can I just say - that is a fabulous post. Sometimes it is easier to judge from a distance rather than put yourselves in their shoes and see all angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegk68 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 I have read and re read a 100 times all your posts after mine over the last day or so and want to thank you all whole heartedly for writing I am still very confused over my SIL's actions. What is clear though is nothing is ever black and white and it's thanks to all your replies that I can see that now. I think I mustn't go around and judge my SIL. I am not in her position, I do not really know how she really feels. My niece's behaviour has been drastic and hurtful to say the least. My brother is beside himslef and is really hurting - what you wrote in particular greyhound pal really struck a chord there. I can see now that my SIL's actions maybe one of a sort of self defence/denial. I still though find it quite hard to accept the clearing out her daughter's room bit though but understand the possible motives a bit better now. But as I said, I guess I shouldn't judge. I'll wait and see and be a support for all. I think for the meantime that is best all round. Can I just say that losing your child like this (and thats whats happened) is your worst nightmare multiplied by one hundred. Even as a parent you cannot imagine what this is like. Until it happens to you. Its like a death. Sounds dreadful but its true. But its a death where you can't mourn and can't have a funeral and can't do anything. You face the fact that you have failed as a parent. You have people who have no idea (smug parents and childless people in particular are harder on you) what you have put into this child judging you and telling you where you've gone wrong. I was lucky that I was helped through it by some very special people. The one person who should have been there for me, wasn't. You are powerless and go from angry to utter love to begging to confusion. Constantly. You don't eat and sleep. When you do sleep, its dreaming about them. You bring this child into the world. You nurse it, you raise it, you try so hard to instill good morals and respect, dignity, compassion into this child. You love your child so much. Then one day (in my case) they tell you they hate you and don't want to live with you any more, let alone even speak or see you again. They then move out. It leads you to darker places than you ever believe you are capable of going. It drives you to despair and you dream of turning back time and constantly beat your self up. You start to believe that there is one way out because you can't bear the pain. Meanwhile you have to function because no one will see you as 'bereaved' parent but a failed one so you have to carry on and internalise all tehse feelings. Its horrific. I took some months to get to your SIL's stage. Its the anger part - where its easier to block them out than keep going over and over and over it again. Its easier to pretend they dont' exist than to live in the reality. What I'm saying is that its a hard time for you but your SIL is only dealing with it the way she knows how. And should you have contact with her, its only a reminder of what she's lost and can't have Its an awful situ but rightly or wrongly I believe that one important lesson teens should learn when they are this way is tough love. Certainly I think I went very wrong by not making my daughter feel bad when she did things which were wrong. I am so, so sorry. Your's is a heartfelt post and I wish dearly that you did not have such a tale to tell. I thank you though so very much for sharing this. It means a lot to me and has also helped me see things from another perspective - something I think I really needed right now. Bless you. mooandboo, thank you also for offering your take on things. It is really healthy to have others views. Views that I had not necessarilly thought of But why should the mother dictate what other people can do? Aren't their relationships with the girl equally valid? She doesn't have exclusive rights over the daughter, surely? This sounds more like the mother telling other family members to make a choice between her and the girl. I think this mother needs help and support, yes, but I don't see why the child should be denied her grandmother's love, and continuing contact, meantime. I am sincerely hoping that time will tell me that this is not the case. Really I am, desperately. I'm sorry too to hear of your troubles scotslass. I know that it is of absolutely no consolation to you and others to hear that I am glad my family is not 'the only one'. Obviously I very much wish that wasn't the case. Thank you for sharing. Can I just say - that is a fabulous post. Sometimes it is easier to judge from a distance rather than put yourselves in their shoes and see all angles. I so agree. So, following on from everyone's posts, we have decided my Mother and I to just wait until after the weekend before contacting our niece/grand daughter. We are doing this to respect the wishes of my SIL in the hope that in the meantime she will approach us with contact details rather than the other way round. I guess we want to see how things develop and don't want to cause a rift/anguish but obviously do not really want to wait that long too. Thank you all so very much again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegk68 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) Some brilliant news that has made my day! My mum just called and said my SIL has been on the phone to her to say that she had a text this morning from my niece asking her if they could meet up. So niece and SIL are having coffee together on Saturday morning. 3 and half weeks of no contact, so am so relieved to hear this. Fingers crossed it goes well Edited July 24, 2008 by tegk68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Oh Helen that's bl00dy brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooandboo Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Fantastic news! Everything crossed that Saturday goes really well for them both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslass Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Some brilliant news that has made my day! My mum just called and said my SIL has been on the phone to her to say that she had a text this morning from my niece asking her if they could meet up. So niece and SIL are having coffee together on Saturday morning. 3 and half weeks of no contact, so am so relieved to hear this. Fingers crossed it goes well Oh, that's wonderful news. I'm so pleased for all of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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