New Top Judge Will Want Stiffer Sentences

[Kathyw]

Ok so the thug knifes someone and kills/maims them and gets 10 years.

 

The victim isn't going to be any deader - the family of the victim's grief will be no less.

Stop it before it gets that far.

Bring back stop and search and if anyone is caught with a 'weapon' ie a knife/screwdriver etc - anything that can cause harm/death and they do not have a valid reason for carrying the weapon - (part of their work tools) then it's an automatic five years with no parole and if they misbehave they get time added on.

To the average 16/19 five years out of their life is eons.

There can be no defence for the average teenager to be carrying weapons so if they carry one they take the risk of being piut away for a long time.

 

What worries me is that kids who wouldn't normally carry weapons will n ow go out 'tooled up' in case they get into a fight.

 

Make carrying weapons a crime that carries a five year sentence and see how quickly the stabbings stop.

[greys mum]

Although I agree with you Kathy. Can't you just see them whining about their human rights being infringed??

[cycas]

When I was a child, I had a knife - a pen knife. And when I was a bit older, but still a teen, I had a set of scalpels, because I was studying Biology and needed them for dissection. And a selection of craft knives for my wood carving. Not to mention knives for chopping vegetables and preparing meat. Plenty of children can handle knives perfectly safely and appropriately.

 

Other children if you shut them in a padded cell would rip the padding off the walls and use it to strangle people with.

 

Who judges the 'valid reason'? If there's a list of 'valid reasons' then kids will learn the list. And if there is no list, there is a potential for enormous injustice and permanent damage to a young person if their 'valid reason' is not believed. And frankly, the 'valid reason' list would need to include stuff like 'oops, it was in my pocket from Wednesday last when I was using it to cut a small hole in my cousin's carpet so he could fit his new stereo to the floor and I forgot I still had it' - the kind of thing that is hard to check.

 

I really don't think the problem is the tool here. Most people carry tools that could kill or injure someone. You could seriously injure someone with a set of house keys, for example. The problem is children who want to kill people, and associated with that, children that are so afraid that someone will kill them that they look on everyday tools as a reasonable defence. How you solve that one I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that penalising people, of whatever age, for carrying everyday tools is not the answer.

[supafrisk]

When I was a lot younger, I used to carry a knife in a sheath on my belt. It was a work knife (I was a mechanic) and used to use it for a variety of reasons.

I never carried it for "other" reasons, however, one night I'd been at the pop round at a friends house and decided to walk the mile home.

The route home took me up a main road towards our station and there aren't any houses, just a couple at the bottom of the road.

In hindsight it's easy to say I should have ordered a taxi, however, when you're 18 you think you're invincible.

As I walked up the left hand side of the road, I spotted a man coming down the right hand side of the road. I only became aware of him because there was a recess in the wall and he'd ducked into it and was watching me, which immediately made me wary.

As I got a few more yards up the road, he came out of his hideyhole and crossed the road, now on the same side as me.

I immediately crossed the road to be on his opposite side.

At this point he also crossed the road, moving back onto his original side of the road (with the wall).

I then knew that this was no "mucking about" by this guy and sobered up very quickly.

I crossed the road for a final time, back on my original side (it had that green wire fencing). It was then that I remembered my knife.

I pulled it from its sheath and ran it across the wire as the guy was almost level on the opposite side and the guy took off like a shot.

 

I am quite sure that if I hadn't have done what I did, I'd have been raped, or worse.

 

No I don't condone owning or carrying knives and things were different then but I think there are different horses, different courses.

[Kathyw]

Going out for the evening/being out on the streets in the evening with a gang of your friends is inlikely to be where you would have your work/craft etc knives.

It is each persons responsibility for their own actions and if you 'forget' that you have a knife in your pocket from cutting a hole in the floor of someone's home last week/year - then you pay the penalty.

 

It's this attitude of constantly excusing people for not taking responsibilty that brings this country to have the problems we are having now.

 

If the law says you cannot carry anything that can take life then it's your responsibility to make sure before you go out that you do not carry such items.

If you are going to classes/work/whatever where you would be using your craft/work knives then surely they should be in some kind of box/container - not in your pocket and you would almost certainly have more than one.

 

I carry no weapons but I would certainly not object to being searched if it would save one life - save one family from neverending grief. why would anyone object - it could be your son/brother/husband father who is the next victim.

Would you then shout from the rooftops 'stop and search them' or would you still say 'it's my/everyones right etc'?

I am sick and tired of 'rights' what about the rights of a person to walk the streets without fear?

 

Ray needed tools for his work but they were either in his place of work, in the car and on arrival home the tools would be brought into the house.

My brother had more tools than anyone I know, they were either with him on a job or locked securely in his van (they cost money) or in his home - I have known many people who use 'tools' for work but I know of none who carry them on their person when not to do with work.

If we/he went out for any reason - no tools went with him ever.

[cycas]

You aren't getting what I am saying. You can kill someone with a key. You can kill someone with a piece of string, or with your hands. A friend of mine was strangled, there were a whole box of knives in the kitchen, but they weren't needed to kill her, because her killer was quite able to do that without weapons. There have been a few well-reported cases recently where people have been killed by being kicked to death. Shall we force everyone under 30 to go barefoot? Of course not. There was a bloke recently who was killed by a gang of teens who threw a rock at him.

 

The knives are not the problem. The people are the problem. If you take the knives away, you make life difficult for innocent people who make a single mistake, but you DON'T reduce the deaths because people who want to kill find a way of doing it.

 

We had this same argument about guns. Ban all guns, that will stop gun crime. The professional criminals still have guns, and the rest kill people with knives instead. If you ban people from carrying all knives, they will kill with forks, or boots, or half-bricks, or wire, or just by punching someone until they die.

 

And have you any idea how difficult it would be to formulate a law that says 'it's OK to carry a knife if you are carrying it in a box'? Then you have to define box, at which point you create a whole industry of people making things that just fall inside the legal definition of a box, so that people who want to carry knives can still carry them.

 

The reason I object to this:

a) I believe it will not work.

 

b) it will be stupidly expensive, and not work.

 

c) It penalises the honest who make a mistake, while making it very easy for those who are genuinely malicious to get round it, so it won't work.

 

d) actually I do think freedom is important. Sorry about that, but I think the 20th century taught us quite enough about what happens when you allow a police state to run out of hand and take the responsibility for behaving well out of the hands of individuals. I believe that true responsibility sometimes involves saying 'we can't do that, because it's wrong and unfair and subject to abuse. '

 

I wouldn't object to being searched, once. But I've known police officers. They quite definitely aren't above abusing their authority. If I were being searched every time I popped to the shops for milk, because someeone had it in for me and they were in a position of authority, then yes I would object, and rightly so.

[cycas]

Oh, and by the way, when I worked in Liverpool, I carried a pruning knife because Liverpool local council has a policy of planting trees, staking them, then forgetting about them. As a result, Liverpool is (or was) covered in poor trees that are strangling on their own tree ties, as they have grown for 4-5 years and now the tie is far too tight but nobody ever takes them off.

 

It's a complete waste of the money spent planting them, and is horrible to see, a tree all callused and messed up and unable to thrive because it didn't occur to anyone to come and cut the tree tie off.

 

I used to go round in my lunch hour liberating trees from their ties with my pruning knife. Try explaining that one to Mr Plod!

[Dollyamber]

I work in maintenance - I carry screwdrivers for my work, sometimes in my pocket. I go home from work with a screwdriver in my pocket as I finish late and do not go back to the workshop before setting off home or I miss the bus - There is a concert on at the stadium on the bus route home. I am searched along with other passangers, the screwdriver is found - I have no legitimate reason to have it with me - The policeperson that searches me has been drafted in to cover the concert and does not know me - The explanation for carrying the screwdriver is not accepted, they think I am out to get someone - I get jailed for 5 years with no chance of parole for carrying this "weapon" - That is the justice we want?

[ReikiAnge]

I work in maintenance - I carry screwdrivers for my work, sometimes in my pocket. I go home from work with a screwdriver in my pocket as I finish late and do not go back to the workshop before setting off home or I miss the bus - There is a concert on at the stadium on the bus route home. I am searched along with other passangers, the screwdriver is found - I have no legitimate reason to have it with me - The policeperson that searches me has been drafted in to cover the concert and does not know me - The explanation for carrying the screwdriver is not accepted, they think I am out to get someone - I get jailed for 5 years with no chance of parole for carrying this "weapon" - That is the justice we want?

 

Similar situation.

 

My husband is a musician. We were talking about knife crime the other day and he said there's a "kit" he would like, which would be useful, but some part of it (can't remember what) includes some kind of blade, or something that could be used as a weapon. He could keep it in his guitar case and possibly it's labelled as what it is, so would help demonstrate why it was there, but we thought, what if he has it in his pocket at a gig one night and forgets to put it back in the guitar case and then trouble kicks off (which it does although he NEVER causes problems and has in the past been the one pacifying situations) and he's found with this in his pocket. Then what? I know Kathy said people should leave their work "tools" at home when they go out for an evening but some of Rob's work is someone else's night out.

[Kathyw]

Each and every one of the stabbings that have occured in London have been the result of an argument in a club/pub/danceplace getting out of hand and then instead of fisticuffs someone pulls a knive and stabs.

Not a result of someone going about their lawful business but the result of an arguement that was one sided because of a knife.

Had the knife not been readily available - then maybee a few black eyes or broken ribs would be the result - far better than death.

 

Yes we all know about people being kicked to death, hit over the head with a baseball bat but just look at the lives lost through knives, 2 in the last ten days in a small area of London.

 

I used to go to a pub on sunday lunchtimes that was full of 'villians' just me and Colleen all the rest were chaps.

The only swear words I heard came from Colleen. some of these guys had done banks (in the days when banks could be done).

They never carried and the reason was 'if someone gets stroppy you give them a slap, if you have a gun you may well use it and then it's a whole different ballgame'.

If you are carrying a knife and get into an arguement chances are you will use that knife. when I say 'you' I am speaking of young people.

 

I have keys and yes they could inflict damage - keys-knives I would rather cross someone with keys than with a knife anyday.We keep a baseball bat just inside our front door. We put it there when the moron was tormenting us and I was alone (Ray was in hospital) and we never removed it.

 

Yes there are bad coppers but they are in the minority and as for a police state - look around the world and see police states then think about just how liberal we are in this country.

 

Take away all the police and do whatever you like - how long do you think you would survive when mob rule is on the streets.

 

I have no fear of the police (yes I have had a couple of nasty experiences, I was arrested the day after coming back from honeymoon and charged by a jumped up git) but I still want that blue line in front of me when trouble comes at me. who else is going to protect me? The bleeding heart liberals? - I think not.

 

My point is for a law that will punish knife carriers - it wouldn't have to be in place long before it would reap benefits.

Something has to be done and to try to stop the young from carrying knives by any other means is futile. And I am sure they do not go out with the intention of killing that night but if the circumstances arise then they have the knife and can use it.

How can you identify who is likely to kill?

Do you go into the schools and tell them it's wrong? Shouldn't they know that already.

Set up programmes etc - the cost would be prohibitive and we know from what has been going on for the last 30 odd years - that doesn't work.

Children and youths today have far more laid pon a plate for them than at any time in history - yet they contribute little or nothing to the country. They have this that and the aother and yet it gives them no respect, no sense of responsibility for their own actions.

The liberal attitude in this country is what has caused this mayhem on the streets.

You don't need a police state to sort it out you just need laws and stiffer sentences.

 

I am sure that almost all of the families of the victims would prefer that carrying knives was against the law before their children became victims.

 

Just read back a bit. Let's use common sense here. I was primary talking about young people - they are the ones doing the killing.

I am sure than if you can prove why you have whatever on you then you shouldn't fear. But it should make people think about what they have in their pockets when not on the way to and from work.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Kathyw

[cycas]

Each and every one of the stabbings that have occured in London have been the result of an argument in a club/pub/danceplace getting out of hand and then instead of fisticuffs someone pulls a knive and stabs.

Not a result of someone going about their lawful business but the result of an arguement that was one sided because of a knife.

Had the knife not been readily available - then maybee a few black eyes or broken ribs would be the result - far better than death.

 

That's an extremely dangerous view. You can kill someone with one punch, or leave them crippled for life. Having a fight is not acceptable at all. Not with knives, or guns, or fists, or feet. That's what needs to change. As long as people think that violence isn't too serious, the problems remain.

 

I don't believe your people who didn't carry guns but gave a slap instead, had it right at all. You are talking about people who are criminals, who are habitually violent, who apparently have no way of resolving a disagreement other than some form of violence. This should not be necessary, in a sane society it is not necessary. In a sane society, people who are offended in pubs leave and go somewhere else. They don't solve problems with their fists.

 

Where I live, there is very little knife crime, but loads of people carry all sorts of tools. Why should we be penalised because there's a local problem in a small area of London, with people who haven't got the sense or self-control to realise that hitting people is wrong? Perhaps we should stop Londoners going out to clubs, if they can't do it without knifing each other: that would be considerably cheaper and easier to enforce reliably than a nationwide ban on carrying 'things that could be weapons'. (I'm not seriously suggesting this. I'm putting it as a similar idea: punish all the people who might possibly commit violence, to make sure violence cannot happen).

 

You can't judge all people of a certain age as the same, just because of their age. That seems to me to be just as bad as treating them all the same because of their colour, or their location, or their religion, and I think it makes the problem worse as well. No wonder teens club together and think the world is out to get them, if people think they should be searched for weapons, just because they happen to be young and spotty. It's bad enough being a teen at the best of times, without the law deciding you are Public Enemy No 1.

Edited July 9, 2008 by cycas

[Kathyw]

First of all they are not my people - they were people drinking in the same pub as myself - and their type are not restricted to London, and you could be in a pub with anyone of their ilk and you would never know it because they do not talk 'shop' it was just we knew who some of them were and believe me I would not put myself in the company of anyone violent.

I may have lived and socialised in the same area as the infamous kray twins but I never met them.

 

Many of those people now lead what would be called respectable lives and their neighbours know nothing of where they or their money came from - bank raids and the like and they were not confined to london.

A couple of the people involved in the gold bullion raids now live in the south west.

 

But I digress.

I was not talking lightly of fights and broken ribs - I was saying that if there is a fight then I would prefer the outcome to be a black eye or a broken rib to a young boy/man dying on a pavement.

If a fight broke out when I was young, it was quickly stopped by the combatants friends, nowdays those friends would not dare intervene for fear of getting stabbed themselves.

 

I agree sane people do not resort to violence but they are usually older - not headstrong young people and they are the ones I am referring to. Perhaps I should have stated anyone under a certain age.

Ask the mothers of teenage sons on here would they prefer a law where young people can be searched for knives when out and about at night or would they like their sons /daughters to have the freedom to not be searched but maybe risk their childs life.

imo the 16 years old who was stabbed near here should not have been in a drinking club at 2am - parents responsibility that.

 

I am a believer in personal freedoms but with that comes responsibility and as long as youths are allowed to carry knives there is no responsibility whatsoever.

 

The stabbing are not confined to London either - they are going on up and down the country - only the deaths are being reported, that is about to change as hospitals have be told to report any stabbings whether fatal or not.

 

I said about two fatal stabbings in a small area of London within a very short time. But infact they are happening all over london as well as the whole country.

 

Zero tolerance. It's all very well to sit and talk from the safety of your own living room but how many people over the age of 50/60 feel safe being on the streets going to and from at night? Not just in big cities but anywhere in the uk? Not too many I am sure.

 

Please read what I actually said and not what you think I was inferring.

 

Penalised because of a problem in a small area of London - do you watch the news?

Edited July 9, 2008 by Kathyw

[Lizzie]

How many of us on here fear for their teenage kids when they go out for the evening?

 

I live in a supposedly very low crime area, just 2 miles away someone was shot in broad daylight, mugging and stabbings are not uncommon in the "club" areas. I don't fear for myself, but I fear for my son and his friends, because they enjoy a good night out. What they don't enjoy are the morons out to cause mayhem and harm to others, wether they carry a blade, gun or bottle, all these idiots want to do is have a reputation.

 

Fine, then let them have a reputation for being the total t***ers they are, but let the police have the power to stop those intent on harming innocent folk out having a good time.

 

Just lately my son has come home early from a night out because some fool has kicked off and he and his mates don't want to get caught up in the ensuing bother.

 

All I can say is who is infringing who's civil rights?

[Kathyw]

Thank you Lizzie.

 

You said in a few sentences what I took about four posts to say.

[cycas]

So explain to me why it's better to search people for hidden weapons than simply to close all problem establishments? By your argument, going out to clubs directly causes violence.

 

It's much easier to close a club than it is to search everyone who could be carrying a knife. Why do you want to do one and not the other? Why not ban alcohol altogether, if it produces violence?

 

Someone was shot in broad daylight. Yet, carrying a gun is illegal. Shooting people is illegal. This seems to me to prove that making yet more things illegal doesn't prevent deaths, because you can't possibly pre-emptively search and imprison everyone. Making laws does not mean that laws will be obeyed.

 

We already have too many people to fit in our prisons: why would we want to put more people in there for long periods, after which they will have a good criminal education (and very likely, little chance of a job doing anything non-criminal afterwards?) And keeping people in prison is insanely costly, quite apart from the fact that it disables people economically for years afterwards because prison is difficult to explain on a CV.

 

Maybe the answer is looking at why people want to kill each other, rather than taking things away one after the other, till the aggressive people who don't care about the laws are still killing one another with their bare hands, and the rest of us are either in prison for making a silly mistake, or sitting at home wondering what's still legal?