staffymad Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Great Advise from Alison. Clicker Training is really fun and you can teach your dog anything from obidience to manners to tricks and you don't need to go through a lot of cost and you can this at home. There is a good book called 'Clicker Training Step by Step' from Peggy Tillman and Karon Pryor. The other thing, whilst out on walks, I would try and get her to sit and focus on you whilst people and dogs pass you. Loads of praise and a treat when she does this right. It will help her focus away from the strangers and channel her fear into attention towards you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanu Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I'm going to disagree a little with what Alison has said although I agree with almost all of what she has written. Personally I wouldn't stop tugging games at all. In fact I encourage tugging games with my lot and find it an excellent way of building self control in a dog. However if you are going to allow tugging games there need to be strict rules which you may want to consider first. Everyone who will play tugging games with the dog must play by the same rules - no exceptions, so it may be safer in some situations to not allow tugging games at all. In your case I would make only one toy and one toy only a tug toy - no other toys can be used for playing tug with. This gives a very simple easy to understand cue for your dog. 2- the tug toy is only brought out by you (or whoever else you can trust to play by the rules), it is never available for her to play with alone. 3- no teeth on hands at any time, any teeth even brushing your hands (or working their way up the toy towards your hands) ends the game immediately (depending on situation I may remove myself and the toy and go stand with my face to a wall for 2 mins then continue the game using a 3 strikes and your out type rule, so the first 2 times I go stand by the wall, the 3rd time the toy goes away and that's it until tomorrow). 3- she can only take the toy on your command (I use "tug it") 4 - she must release the toy when you ask (I use "give") this will need to be taught separately before you start the tugging games. I use these games to help self control by playing the game, then asking my dog to release, then to bring himself under control and do some obedience exercises (maybe sit/down, spin, sendaway, walk back etc) then play tug again. Any time he breaks the rules gets him a time out (me facing the wall with the toy) he breaks the rules 3 times and the games finished. I've only had to end a session prematurely once The other thing I don't necessarily agree with (sorry Alison) is the ignoring your dog when they come to you to play. I actively encourage this - i want my dogs to want to be with me, it's the premise of all training. However my dogs all understand the "Mum's busy" signs, and if I am talking/on laptop/cooking etc i will just ignore them. However if I'm slumped in front of the TV and one of them wants to play then i think it's quite alright if they come and ask me to play. There is a line between asking and being pushy though, and my dogs are not allowed to be pushy and obnoxious. They also understand that if I don't feel like playing and tell them "enough" it means Mum's not up for it and they should go and amuse themselves. Ultimately it is just about setting rules you are comfortable living by and sticking to them. That goes for everyone who is living with the dog, although I'll admit that getting your husband or whoever to live by the rules is far harder than getting the dogs to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I think your points are entirely valid Kelly To say that I'm no expert would be understating things to put it mildly! However, I stand by what I said given the current circumstances based on the info that Skipppy's Mum gave. This is a situation which could easily escalate and have serious consequences if not handled correctly and I was thinking in terms of nipping things in the bud (no pun intended), manipulating Xena's perception of where she stands in the "pack" hierarchy and taking things right back to basics. but i think its because he plays tug and sometimes he gets scared of her and shows it I'd say no tugging games, no physically interactive games at any time whatsoever at least until you've got this problem sorted Personally I wouldn't stop tugging games at all. In fact I encourage tugging games with my lot and find it an excellent way of building self control in a dog. However if you are going to allow tugging games there need to be strict rules which you may want to consider first. Everyone who will play tugging games with the dog must play by the same rules - no exceptions, so it may be safer in some situations to not allow tugging games at all. You said that you disagreed with me on this but I think we're actually in accord. I think this is one of those situations that you mention and that the tugging games should cease immediately. As you say, they're a fantastic way to teach a dog to learn self control and they can be reintroduced at any time once order and discipline have been established. At the moment they appear to be at the root of the problem, between Xena and Jason at least. Better to leave tugging games aside for a while and play something else IMHO. (Apologies for editing your quote but I have only highlighted bits, not expurgated that particular paragraph, and I hope it doesn't make anything appear out of context as it certainly wasn't meant to). I mentioned something about playing games which would provide Xena with mental and physical stimulation. I don't phrase things well but I suppose I meant games where everyone wins, e.g. dog retrieves toy/jumps garden cane/sits when asked etc., owner delighted to give treat (i.e. excuse to spoil ), dog enjoys accomplishing task, knows owner is pleased, is pleased to please and is thrilled to receive said treat. As tugging games stand at the moment with Xena, she's winning and Jason is losing and what message is she getting from that? I suspect that she thinks she's a contender for Jason's place in the scheme of things and will persist in challenging until she's "above" him. If she's biting him, scaring him or growling at him she's already started to perceive herself as having dominion over him. Bonding with dogs for me is all about win-win. Sure, tugging games can be win-win too when played as you describe and as I play them with dogs but I suspect that it might be too much for Jason and Xena to take on board just yet. Surely it would be better to just cut them out of the equation full stop for a while? (the tugging games, not Jason or Xena! ) I freely admit to being thoroughly lazy - a line of least resistance person; whatever it takes to get my own way by the easiest route possible but tbh, I don't see anything wrong with that. I want an easy life where me and my dog live in contented harmony together. Oh, and one other thing. If Xena comes to you asking to play (and again, I know this sounds harsh) - don't. Ignore her. You should be the one who chooses when it's play time and initiates the game. You only have to ignore her for a few minutes then when she's gone to her basket or wherever, ask her to play. You're the pack leader and should be the one who decides when everything happens. The other thing I don't necessarily agree with (sorry Alison) is the ignoring your dog when they come to you to play. I actively encourage this - i want my dogs to want to be with me, it's the premise of all training. However my dogs all understand the "Mum's busy" signs, and if I am talking/on laptop/cooking etc i will just ignore them. However if I'm slumped in front of the TV and one of them wants to play then i think it's quite alright if they come and ask me to play. There is a line between asking and being pushy though, and my dogs are not allowed to be pushy and obnoxious. They also understand that if I don't feel like playing and tell them "enough" it means Mum's not up for it and they should go and amuse themselves. My suggestion in this regard was intended as a short term measure to help establish a pack order, something that would help Xena know where she stands. Lovely she may be, but she's "only" a dog; she must learn that humans are in charge. Once she knows where she stands, I can see nothing wrong in a dog instigating play but I feel that ignoring her until that time comes and Xena's family choosing the time and place for games or cuddles is central to her future good behaviour. Please feel free (Khanu and anyone else) to argue against or debate the foregoing - it's great to be in a position to learn from each other's experiences and I for one will most certainly not take any criticism personally at all. The more we learn, the better dog owners we become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanu Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 My suggestion in this regard was intended as a short term measure to help establish a pack order That'll be why I don't agree with ignoring dogs. I don't believe that dogs see us as part of a "pack" or indeed that dogs need to "learn their place" and disagree entirely with hierarchy adjustment type "training" (training is in inverted commas here because to my mind it isn't training). Many dogs that undergo this type of ignoring actually become depressed. They may seem like model citizens in that they don't push for attention, don't jump up etc. but actually they are in state of learned helplessness - much like a child that is ignored learns that there is no point in crying as no one will ever come, so you might as well do nothing. I don't agree with stopping tugging games entirely as I believe it can be used as a good method for self control training, also it requires the dog to be working in harmony with the handler - you can't tug on your own. That's why i said consideration should be given to the rules of the game - anyone who can't/won't follow them should not be allowed to play tug with Xena - doesn't mean that no one can play tug with her. Staffies are physical dogs who enjoy tug immensly - much more than some other breeds, you are much better off working with a dogs natural instincts IMO and putting some control over it, than trying to suppress those instincts entirely and probably failing. As far as winning/losing in tug games, I'm afraid I don't keep count when I play tug with my dogs. The whole point of the game is to work in co-operation with each other - it's not about winning, which is why generally if a dog tugs so hard that the handler lets go the dog immediately shoves the tug toy back at them to continue the game. Although Jason may be scared by her behaviour when she is barking/growling/nipping, I doubt very much she believes she has "dominion" over him. More like she has no idea of the boundaries of play - barking growling and nipping are all play behaviours, staffies can be particularly vocal when playing. Yes she may need rules, and to understand that her behaviour isn't acceptable, but wrapping it up as if she has plans on dominating the household is a load of tosh IMO. If Xena was my dog (and frankly her behaviour sounds much like my new springer pup who also didn't have boundaries before coming here), I would be working on self control exercises, Ttouch to help her settle in the house. Teaching commands, give, leave and settle (give back and object, leave an object/person/otherdog alone, go lie down and chill). Clicker training shaping games and I'm also working the levels with Breckin (Sue Ailsby levels - brilliant resource for giving a dog a good grounding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffymad Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I am not a huge believer in the whole 'pack theory', however as we are talking about a Staffy here, these dogs are very much a breed who will test their borders with owners and will have to be shown/told that they have overstepped a line. I am not saying that Xena is trying to dominate but staffy bitches are known to push their luck (for better words than dominate) with dogs and people. So I guess with this breed it is a 50/50 in my eyes. One of my own staffies (funny enough the bitch) can be testing and be more stubborn that the male. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanu Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I still wouldn't be using rank reduction techniques though personally. I think it can be dangerous to start beliving in dogs "dominating" it implies that there is forethought and that the dog has a plan. Dog's do what works, until now Xena hasn't had any rules established, she doesn't know what behaviour works. I imagine at the moment she gets a whole heap of attention when she is "misbehaving" rahter than when she is being "good". Ultimately all that is needed is to reinforce the behaviour you want and be consistant in what you are reinforcing. In some dogs (my male GSD for example) physical touch can be more rewarding than food - which is why I use tugging games, and physical games to reward him. It also means that if anyone pushes him when he does something they don't like (push him to get off if he jumps up for example) then he sees that as rewarding and will continue with the behaviour. If Xena likes physical games like tug (and it sounds like she does!) then *use it* would be my advice. You need to rock their world and for many dogs - like my Khanu- food just doesn't cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 .......dogs that undergo this type of ignoring actually become depressed. They may seem like model citizens in that they don't push for attention, don't jump up etc. but actually they are in state of learned helplessness...... Does "model citizen" Sol ever come over as a depressed dog in a state of learned helplessness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanu Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Does "model citizen" Sol ever come over as a depressed dog in a state of learned helplessness? To be fair I said many not all - you just chose to cut that word out. I couldn't comment on Sol having never seen him in the flesh, but many of the dogs I have seen that have undergone rank reduction techniques are depressed and never undertake activities on their own initiative. Many owners find this preferable - I prefer to my dogs to have spunk, think for themselves and puzzle solve, but then the activities I choose to do with my dogs are not what the majority of owners would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack-Sparrows-girl Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'm just wondering if maybe she has an ear infection and certain noises are making her jump or hurting her ears at all? Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumpole Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Most rescues actively involved with bullbreeds strongly discourage tug games. bull breeds get very intense during strength games and due to the natural tenacity of the breed (particularly staffies ) find it very difficult to give up and 'lose' with a strong knowledgeable owner who understands when to press the off button and more importantly how to, you will rarely have a problem but with the inexperienced what starts as play can easily cross the line and cause a stand off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie No Dots Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Got to agree with Rumpole, tug games are not a good idea at the moment. Maybe later on but not right now. Staffies have one *fault* they go from 0-60 in 000000.1 second You need to know how to switch the dog off before it goes into full on wayhay mode. If shes getting inconsistent messages from you jason and owner then shes just going to keep doing what shes doing. You must work out a daily routine including your requests from her throughout the day and stick to it. If jason is unable to understand the rules then you must safeguard your dog and not let him interact with her. Its harsh but the only way to succeed. Six months is feet under the table time and as the rules are not set in stone shes writting them for you. Take control now. If you would like to speak to a behaviourist for advice pm me and ill send you a number of a lady who you can ring for advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts