Santa's Little Helper Posted April 30, 2007 Report Share Posted April 30, 2007 a friend has a lab x about 2 1/2 years old, neutered. he's a lovely dog, very playful and gets on well with the other dogs. at the weekend, my oh was walking with her and some others when she dropped her treats on the ground. her dog went to gobble them up but as she went to stop him and pick them up he bit her on the arm. he's done this before when she's tried to take something off of him and she's been told to do the 'alpha roll' on him. the owner and another lady tried to do it but made a bit of a pig's ear of it and i think, in the end, the dog just rolled over to have his tummy rubbed!! minutes later, he ran off to see another dog who was with a mum and toddler. because of what had just happened, the friend was desperate to get him back but he took no notice and just came back when he felt like it. fortunately, he didn't cause any harm but i'm very concerned that it's only a matter of time ....... i've told my oh to tell her when he sees her, that she must work on his recall - i can help her with that - but i don't know what to suggest regarding the aggression. i'm not sure about this alpha roll thing, is it ok in really bad cases? mic martin did it on dog borstal once and everyone keeps telling her that's the thing to do but i'm not so sure that using force is the answer. i was thinking maybe she should teach him to 'leave it'. any advice would be much appreciated cos i'm worried that if something's not done soon, there's going to be a serious incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted April 30, 2007 Report Share Posted April 30, 2007 I wouldn't ever try to use an alpha roll on a dog, it seems very outdated to me and I'd be concerned the situation would escalate. I would suggest she contacts a trainer/behaviourist from somewhere like the APDT or the APBC - and has an "in person/dog" consultation And in the meantime she's careful about where she lets him off and works on recall in the house and garden to begin with. I think teaching a leave it command would be a good idea. (just posting as a fellow dog owner, not a training expert!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiona711 Posted April 30, 2007 Report Share Posted April 30, 2007 Oh no i hate when people are advised to alpha roll any dog I think if i was your friend i would work on a good leave command , it took me ages to be able to take anything off Storm when he first came here he was a terrible thief and resource guarding was one of his favorite quirks . It took me ages to get him to leave anything , as i refused to challenge him in any way he was a damned sight heavier, faster and stronger than i was and i valued my limbs too much I found the easiest way to start with was to make sure i always had really tasty treats around food was very high value to Storm and when he pinched anything it was his no questions asked , i used to throw a nice piece of cooked chicken or sausages away from him so even if he was lying down with his prize he had to get up to go and get the treat , as soon as he moved away from whatever he had that i wanted, i would say leave as he moved away then i would pick it up and tell him " it's mine " as i held it to my chest , he realized soon enough that leave meant something tasty , it wont happen over night and it can be hard work and frustrating but in dogs with these kind of issues a strong leave command is really important , especially if they are around kids , Storm is not fully over his guarding issues but i know him a lot better now and understand his body language so i know when i can take something and when i still need to swap . The thing is you need to take it really slowly , the next step for me was to tell Storm , what ever object he had was Mine and show him a treat telling him that was his and as he went to get the treat i would slide what he had towards me with my foot to start with then pick it up hold it to my chest and say its mine again . I am no expert but it worked for me as i said Storm was a lot faster and stronger than i am he also weighs more than i do so i would never put him in a position where i knew he could react badly . A behaviourist at the training club i went to once told me that i should take everything off him as it is mine nothing is his ?? Maybe i am wrong but as far as i can tell that would have been stupid in Storms case as he did not know me obviously did not trust me at the start , and i know if i had pushed him he probably would have had a go at me if i had done that with him , every dog is different and different things work for different dogs but i still do not see the point in challenging a dog in that way , why put them in a position where you know they could react badly ? Fiona xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reds Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 (edited) Sounds like possession aggression and personally I would NEVER use an Alpha roll on a dog which had just actually gone through with biting me (or any other dog for that matter!). The last thing you want to do is to stress him out further and possibly provoke any more negative/aggressive behaviour. The way I would choose is to go back to basics with a training programme which teaches the dog that you are a giver and not a taker and that he does not need to feel threatened by you and that you are not going to 'steal' anything away from him. Jean Donaldson's book, "It's Mine" is a great start (I think). I am in no way whatsoever any authority but from personal experience with an extremely possession aggressive dog (and I mean extreme as in he would threaten you and put a defensive stand up against you over a packet of treats that was in the next room from you!!). If I'd tried an Alpha roll with him I'd have no face left! The steps by Jean Donaldson though made a definite difference and I could actually manage to (very carefully) walk up to him and take, reward, and re-give him the 'object' without much more than an initial growl and it also saved him from eating (i.e. ripping and swallowing) an entire large sized plastic tupperware box plus lid! Your friend definitely needs to seek help so she can know how to react in future but don't just go with something because someone says so, make sure they are experienced and do actually know what they are talking about (guess you shouldn't be listening to me then!!! ). On a more helpful level, and as Fionna has said, tell your friend to always have something of really high value on her person when she's with her dog - for distracting primarily. Squeaky toys or whatever 'floats his boat' but it needs to be worth leaving his find for. Other obvious advice is not to set herself (or the dog) up to fail. If she drops treats then let him have them!!! It will take a lot of time to build up to the stage where sge can safely take something off him and each step needs repeating and reinforcing, so don't ask for more than she already has. Edited May 1, 2007 by reds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 .......................... he's done this before when she's tried to take something off of him and she's been told to do the 'alpha roll' on him. the owner and another lady tried to do it but made a bit of a pig's ear of it and i think, in the end, the dog just rolled over to have his tummy rubbed!! ......................... i've told my oh to tell her when he sees her, that she must work on his recall - i can help her with that - but i don't know what to suggest regarding the aggression. i'm not sure about this alpha roll thing, is it ok in really bad cases? mic martin did it on dog borstal once and everyone keeps telling her that's the thing to do but i'm not so sure that using force is the answer. i was thinking maybe she should teach him to 'leave it'. any advice would be much appreciated cos i'm worried that if something's not done soon, there's going to be a serious incident. I agree with the other posts - please don't let her use an alpha roll on this dog. It could end up being very dangerous. Basically, don't copy things seen on telly no matter who does them! and don't listen to people who are not genuinely experienced with "aggression". Whereabouts is your friend? I know good trainers in most areas so if you want, please PM and I'll try to suggest someone who could help Is the aggression only over food? If so then I'd suggest to your friend that she manages the situation at first and doesn't get into the situation, as the dog will only practice the behaviour. If the dog gets anything such as dropped treats, sacrifice them if she cannot take them safely just for the moment (until she gets reputable help) and that goes for any other food as well. There are many fantastic dogs who show possessiveness over food and they are helped to change their ways - previous persistent alpha rolling may mean that it is extremely difficult if not impossible to improve things and the dog may end up being put to sleep because some foolish person suggested the owners follow what was done on tv. One case where an owner was advised to alpha roll stands out in my memory, it was in Australia and the owner was advised by members of a dog forum to alpha roll her malamute. I can't recall what the dog was doing, to "warrant" this bizarre advice. The outcome was that she listened to the forum members, as most would; she rolled the dog who basically attacked her and bit her face and body. She ended up in hospital and of course the dog was destroyed. It's really not good training. There are some great books out there, Mine! and also Dogs are from Neptune both fab, the first a bit behaviouristy so I sometimes tend to recommend the second one as I think owners will be moreinclined to read it ... Best of luck with this, Lindsay x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 (edited) Here's some info as to why alpha rolls are in fact very dangerous and confusing to the dog: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf Lots of good info on there by very knowledgeable people explaining what alpha rolls actually mean to a dog - basically that its life is under threat. Alpha rolls are not used by wolves in the way some trainers have recommended them - they are either offered by one of the wolves, or, if actually given, can mean serious injury or death. Here's a training article re. food possession http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2...ectguarding.htm - this isn't a "how to do it" article really but shows how using careful managment and positive reinforcement the dog's attitude can be changed. I'd recommend still reputable behavioural help, though Lindsay x Edited May 1, 2007 by Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingrid Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 I wouldn't call this being aggressive towards the owner, just a dog that is possessive and prepared to protect it's resource. I prefer my dogs to give up things when asked, not because I want to take them away, I rarely do that, but simply because you never know when they may get hold of something that can harm them. I've been in a similar situation with one of my past rescues, you couldn't get within 3 feet of him when he had a bone etc. without great risk, it was cured but you need patience and confidence. I'd go along with what Lindsay has advised and get good professional help, aggresion is not something to take advise on the internet about, people need to see the owner and the dog to understand what is going on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa's Little Helper Posted May 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 thanks guys, i appreciate you all taking the time and trouble to post your advice and help i think the most important thing suggested is getting some professional help (lindsay, will pm you for details of trainers ), in the meantime i'll write down all the relevant points, (high value treats, don't set the dog up to fail, why not to do alpha roll, etc) and pass these on to her ('cos i'll never remember it all !! lol) and then if she wants me to help her with training the 'leave' command, i'll use the clicker training link (object guarding) as a guide. i was lucky with my own dog as she didn't have any food guarding issues, but it wasn't until i read the article that i realised that we'd used the same principles to get our dog to accept our cat. when sadie first arrived she was very aggressive towards our cat and the poor thing had to spend the first six months virtually, upstairs!! however, by continually rewarding her for good behaviour whenever the cat was around, we have managed to get to the stage now where they actually sit side by side to have their food!! this is some achievement, i can tell you and it has taken probably over a year or more of patience and perseverance, gradually increasing the boundaries to get where we are today. although i know i'll never have a photo of them curled up sleeping together at least they tolerate each other now which i could never have imagined 3 years ago!! so, like fiona with storm, i know that it could take a long while, it's just a question of whether my friend has the patience and committment, too. Is the aggression only over food? no. she's told me before that he pinches socks etc from the washing basket and they have to chase him round the house to get them back but one day in the park he found a glove and when she took it from him, he jumped up and bit her. One case where an owner was advised to alpha roll stands out in my memory, it was in Australia and the owner was advised by members of a dog forum to alpha roll her malamute. I can't recall what the dog was doing, to "warrant" this bizarre advice. The outcome was that she listened to the forum members, as most would; she rolled the dog who basically attacked her and bit her face and body. She ended up in hospital and of course the dog was destroyed. this is what i'm worried about. he is a lovely dog, soppy as a sack but i'm concerned that as his recall is so poor, he could run up to a child that has dropped some sweets or something and bite them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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