California Healthy Pets Act

[JoC]

I came across this on an another list because I was asked to sign a petition against it, which I'm not prepared to do, although I'm not convinced about it.

 

Healthy Pets Act

 

It basically makes it compulsory to spay or neuter pets by 4 months of age, but owners of pedigree cats and dogs can apply for a permit. Provided the people only agree permits in the right circumstances, ie good breeders not puppy farmers, I think it could be a good thing. If as much public money will be saved as they claim, they could even make it compulsory for pets to have a temperament test before giving them a permit to remain entire.

 

I'm not entirely convinced about the age, but I know early neutering is common in America.

 

I think it's better than Arnie's solution, which was to pts stray animals after 3 days rather than 7

 

Do you think this is a good idea? Would you like to see it here? Do you think it could ever happen here?

[~Canis-Equus~]

No.

 

Pteppic isnt ready to be neutered even now nad he is over 2 years old. Neutering him could be the absolute worst thing possible for him - in all honesty (and no im not being silly Jojo), if he was mr and mrs averages dog and had been done at 6 months, he would have bitten someone by now and either be up for rehoming or be PTS. He is THAT nervous and fearful of some people.

[Trallwm farm]

I can see the logic in that it will dramatically reduce the amount of unwanted dogs but with the bigger breeds it wreaks havoc.

Ive got two here that have been done by 6 months. Medically everything stops growing and if either have a medical problem involving thier privates we are snookered and behaviourally they havent really grown emotionally and it will leave them at a half way stage forever without the benefit of maturity through nature.

 

I think its a classic case of someone having a good idea but without specialist knowlege on dogs.

[tegk68]

From the bigger picture point of view, and I haven't read the article yet, in theory I think I might be quite pro this. That's if the neutering age was upped to 6 months. If it worked, my god that would solve a lot of problems and some.

[KathyM]

Medically everything stops growing

 

There are scientific studies that show neutering early actually keeps the growth plates "open" and dogs grow for longer, resulting in taller, leaner dogs. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, I'm not sure.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this. If there were clauses available for people who had good reason not to neuter, I think I'd go in for it a lot more, but then I think of how they can be exploited. Most dogs will be fine neutered at that age, but some may not be. I see there is a clause where the vet can get you out of it for health reasons, but I would like to see a clause for those not wanting to do it for behavioural reasons, again not sure how you would prevent this from being exploited, or know at 4 months old that a dog can't be neutered.

 

I think it's likely to have been put at 4 months because paediatric neutering is so much more common over there, like you said.

 

I'm not sure I feel comfortable with the idea that pedigree animals can get "let off" just for being pedigrees - while I agree that it would prevent more accidental crossbreed matings, I feel that there needs to be additional protection for pedigrees owned by idiots.

[Trallwm farm]

It also assumes that pedigree dogs dont need nuetering because by default they dont present a problem or add to the numbers in rescue.

 

Any dog potentially should be done because any dog unwittingly adds more dogs to the number unwanted out there

[Rudi]

I don't think there should be a difference between pedigree or not - if there are exemptions it should be considered on an individual basis. For me, I wouldn't neuter or spay before a dog is mature, puberty is part of development and I'm happier letting dogs go through it first. There's a report out which I'm trying to get a copy of that links things like bone cancer to early neutering. I'll have to get the details, maybe someone on here knows of it.

[JoC]

I assumed pedigree dogs were excempt for 'good breeders' to continue, having to apply for a license before you breed *should* prevent puppy farms and back yard breeders, particularly if applying to keep the dog in entire is a costly hassle.

 

Emma, I do take your point about not wanting to get Pteppic neutered, but the thing is you can't know what he would be like if he had been done at 4 months, not for sure. We can never really understand the behavioural effects fully, we can have ideas but you can't ever know for sure. Having said that, if you find a veterinary behaviourist they could recommend to keep the dog entire. Maybe they could have two exemptions, a breeding exemptions, where the dog must be of sound temperament and health, and an excemption for health reasons, where the dogs are not permitted to breed and will face a huge fine if they allow that to happen. Seeing as crossbreed puppies would be extremely rare once the scheme was in place, you could DNA test any puppies, and if they are found to be the progeny of an exempt dog without a breeding a license, then the owner would face a very large fine.

 

I think you might end up with lots of puppies being pts at birth though, perhaps that is better than a lifetime of neglect and suffeering though?

[DanishPastry]

I think you might end up with lots of puppies being pts at birth though, perhaps that is better than a lifetime of neglect and suffeering though?

but after a number of years, surely most dogs would be neutered and puppies would become rare?

[Kathyw]

It also assumes that pedigree dogs dont need nuetering because by default they dont present a problem or add to the numbers in rescue.

 

Any dog potentially should be done because any dog unwittingly adds more dogs to the number unwanted out there

 

 

My thoughts too.

 

Though I do not agree with the 4 months I think it should be later, quite a bit later.

[~Canis-Equus~]

Mmm, you are right Jo, i cant 'know' for certain i can only base it on my own experience...

 

At 4 months though Pteppic was still an extremely nervous puppy.... i actually wouldnt consider neutering ANY pup at that age, the time i start to think about if a dog will benefit from neutering is around 12 months to 2 years for 'normal' size and around 3 years for giant breeds....

 

I have heard of a study done on pre pubertal neutering but i cant find it yet (will go and ask the person who told me about it again), i think this study is purely aimed at looking at the behavioural issues.

 

I think there should be heavy penalties for breeding.... or allowing ones male to breed.

 

I dont see that one has to have compulsory neutering to achieve this though - in fact i think the 'whip everything off' attitude creates ignorance around normal behaviour, and the natural processes a bitch goes through and so whilst ok, those who have neutered at 6 months wont creat unwanted litters we still have thousands of litters from those who didnt yet get round to it, and had NO idea what to look out for and how to keep their bitch safe and secure.

 

Being honest here, how many people here, and id class all of us here as sensible, intelligent people, know the signs and symptoms of a bitch coming into season, how long that season lasts, how long and when she will be receptive for....... etc

 

Very few id guess and thats not cos anyone is stupid, its because you have never HAD to know - and now apply that to the thousands of not very clever people who own dogs and havent yet saved up sufficient to get the bitch neutered.......

 

I think there is a whole sphere of people who dont want to neuter for whatever reason but COULD keep their bitch safe if they knew how.

 

Im waffling and probably entire off the point now!

 

Em

[Rudi]

I have heard of a study done on pre pubertal neutering but i cant find it yet (will go and ask the person who told me about it again), i think this study is purely aimed at looking at the behavioural issues.

 

There have been a few studies done on very young puppies, in one the pups were neutered at 7 weeks and few differences were found in their behaviour compared to entire dogs when they were compared later on. As you say, most of the research has been looking at behavioural issues. It's the health related issues that I'd like to learn more about too.