dlmckay

This has been discussed in our flygility newsletter this month... Hope you find this useful!

Agree... wean off the treats. Or you can delay giving the treat for longer and longer until you have a good 30 seconds in a down before treating. So, treat for a down, then for a down and hold for 5 seconds, then for a down and hold 10 seconds until you're able to get a down, you make a cup of tea and then reward. Remember to release the dog too when you're done. The treat means she's finished, she's done her work, she's rewarded. The classic problem with dogs breaking is they don't understand when the exercise is finished. Use a word like "OK" to let the dog know it's ok to break the position they're holding for you.

Hmm, Jet has a thing about eating Raven's collar when she wears one - which is a pain because I have quick clips on them and of course, they're more expensive He chews on Raven's collar when they're playing. It's easy to hang onto and she doesn't squeal when he munches on it - like she would do if it were her neck! I leave the collars off them now and run the risk of being fined for having dogs outside the house with no rego tags They're also microchipped, so I might be able to plead that one! Wierd how Zak will pinch them off the bench though... at least having a destructive dog keeps you tidy with your belongings

I teach this! The best device for teaching walking nicely on a lead (IMO) is a flat collar and a hand friendly lead (soft cotton or leather - try to avoid handburning nylon). I have taught the stop/start method of teaching as it doesn't matter if the dog is focused on you or not, which some of these dogs aren't You have the dog at your side, you walk forward and the second the dog surges forward, stop. Command BACK and then when the dog is back at heel (having either shuffled backwards themselves or been physically put back into place), then walk forward again. Repeat as necessary... can be harder with VERY bouncy dogs, but does give the dog a solid understanding of where they should be. As young, bouncy dogs get fried brains if you work them for too long, this exercise is best tried for just 15mins each day. Remember to release with an OK, when it is time to bounce and be a boingy dog again I recommend Haltis for those with dogs that lurch about the place as I feel it gives greater control as it guides the nose, rather than the head. Let me know if you want any further advice, I have PDF leaflets I can email you if you're interested.

My first thoughts were that George doesn't like to be alone with Ty. Ty feels confident to stay where she is because she's obviously top dog in the house. Dogs do follow you around the house though, it's in their pack nature to follow the dominant one about - you might offer them some food or sneak out for a walk without them But it does sound to me (in my opinion) that George doesn't feel happy staying alone with Ty.

This could be very simple... teach her a command to take the treat. I use TAKE IT for my dogs as I didnt' want them to snatch food from my kids (who are at dog mouth height and forever running around with biscuits and goodness knows what else ). I can offer the treat, all my body language saying that they could take the treat, but they will not until hearing TAKE IT. If you used this command with the people she will readily take the treats from and consistently use this word to mean "you may have this, it's ok". Use it for her dinner too - her regular dinner (not the scraps that she worries about). Put the dinner down as normal, have the dogs all wait and then say TAKE IT to release them to eat. Then you can start getting other people to use the command too and she'll start to build a black and white picture of "I can take this food offered to me if I hear TAKE IT". I would imagine that a lot of her fears are to do with insecurity of whether she can or cannot take the food HTH

YAY - discussion is always good - you clarified matters to those asking questions and as a result, realised how well you're actually doing. Good for you! I wish you and Purdie all the best.

Thanks for that bebe - none of the links work anymore though... I didn't think he'd be popular in the UK... However, it doesn't hurt to look at all the training methods and mix and match bits around to suit yourself and your dog. Knowledge is power and all that! I do like Cesar's theory that naughty dogs are bored and need exercise. I do this in my loose lead lessons - 15 minutes of run around time prior to class so that the dog's silly hyper state has come down sufficiently to be able to train them. I also like his interrupter method (which he uses with a choke chain, but could be done with training discs or a shaker can) for barking dogs, but I would not recommend anyone start to do it without first knowing exactly what to do because that's all about timing - get the timing wrong and you needn't bother But this isn't about CM, so natspants, I apologise for detracting from your thread... has any of our conversation thrown up anything helpful?

Really? Hadn't heard that... got a link? The only thing I can find referencing that is someone's blog... which mentions he used a choke chain and a treadmill... also remember that the US is the land of lawsuit... Would be interested to read up on it though, if you've got the info I wouldn't say barbaric, but they are pretty tough. Like I said, I don't agree with everything he does, but it's always good to know what other methods are out there. Pick and mix training if you like - A little Angela Stockdale, a little Cesar Milan, a little common sense? Ah yes, of course. You mentioned that earlier - with the stooge dogs... such a shame that Nat can't get to these sessions more often then... Nat, a lot of this is down to your anxiety too you know Purdie will definitely be picking up on it and feeling that if you are worried, she should be worried too. Hey, I remembered you mentioned she enjoys her tug toy - great - play with this, end the game before she is bored and lets go... this will build up and you can use this as her "high value" reward. If it gets soooo exciting for her, it may (one day) outdo her attention on other dogs...

Well Nats, my hat is off to you for persisting for so long! Seriously, I think you're the most amazing, committed owner I've heard of in a looooong time! Now, as others have mentioned, it would appear AS's take on fixing her dog aggression isn't working (after 15 months, it truly can't be). It's made improvements, but hasn't solved the problem as she still can't go out. I was thinking about you and Purdie's situation and I wondered if you'd heard of Cesar Millan? He's an American trainer and takes on a lot of rescued pitbulls and watnot and has a pack of around 30 that live together harmoniously. His methods are probably not going to be popular in the UK... However, his take on this would be to "flood" Purdie with other dogs, not allowing her to react by keeping a short lead and a muzzle on her. It's a seriously intense thing to do to a dog, but he's of the "sink or swim" school of teaching - it's not for everyone. I saw him do this on TV with a Rottie and it was actually fine after the first 10 minutes of all the other dogs (he took this rottie into his pack) sniffing to say hello. The rottie did, however, take a dislike to a GSD and CM made sure that this GSD was always around the rottie. So the poor rottie had to put up with this GSD and just "get over it". Now, this method is extremely intense. However, it can have amazing results. I suggest you read up on the internet about Mr Milan because not everyone likes him, however, the results on his TV show have been quite phenomonal. National Geographic website - Cesar Millan page Now, let's just be clear before I get flamed... this is the complete opposite of what Nats been doing with Angela Stockdale. However, I believe that in order to be good trainers for our dogs, it is worthwhile knowing as much as we can about all the methods out there in order to pick the correct one for our dog. I don't agree with everything Cesar Millan has to say, but I do think some dogs get a good result with his methods. It's down to each individual dog owner to understand their dog and understanding all the methods, to pick the correct one that's right for that dog.

OK, this is my take on what is occuring at your home… I would add that I haven't read anything about your situation except what you have put in this thread, so if I'm way off the mark, then I apologise… Purdie is a very intelligent, bright dog. Being a dalmation (?), she is also headstrong. She has a handler that is poorly and she takes advantage of this by pushing her luck, sometimes getting exactly what she wants. Because she can domineer her handler, she doesn't trust the handler to make "good decisions" on her behalf and as a result, feels the need to attack other dogs because she doesn't trust her handler to deal with that situation. She is currently left alone at home and is getting very bored. NatsPants has many stresses going on at home and at college/work and is finding the added stress of this situation with Purdie exhausting. Now, with that as how I see the situation, I would add my theory on what I think would be good for Purdie… this is only my opinion, and you should decide whether or not it would work for you and Purdie…. I have always felt that dogs are very similar to toddlers. Headstrong, fearless and exasperating at times. Because neither toddlers nor dogs speak english, you have to set rules, have consequences for rules broken and maintain those boundaries in a fair, firm and consistent manner. Set routines work very well because the dog can start to expect what is happening next and they don't have to think about it. Their handler is in charge of the routine and this helps to promote the handler in the dog's eyes, same as our toddler having faith that we will feed them on time and send them to a warm, clean bed at night. So, I would put Purdie into a routine that works for you - it fits around your other commitments that you already have - You obviously have a busy morning getting ready to go out, so I wouldn't use that time as training time - you're too stressed. However, when you get home, that's really when you should take just 15 minutes and use that as Purdie time. When the dinner is in the oven and you're just mooching about the house waiting for it to cook. I would have a 10 minute zoom about with her, either throwing something, or (as she's not particularly toy oriented atm), just push her around and play with her. My dogs love to shoulder barge me and dance about being a loon. This acts as a destresser from being alone all day and helps loose the excitement of you being at home now. Then have a command that you wish to teach her and work intensively for 15 minutes on getting it right. Heelwork would be superb because she needs to concentrate on you in order to do it effectively and she does sound as though she needs to learn to focus on you more. Then after 15 minutes, end on a high note, play with her again and then go to your dinner. Pop her in her crate or in her bed whilst you eat and then let her mooch about afterwards as she does normally, keeping in mind the general house rules of what's acceptable and not! If you tried this routine, I would like to think that some of her boredom would dissapate. However, routines are only effective if they are, well, routine! So pick a time that is going to be consistent and stick with it. Also realise that if you can't use the same time on say, a Wednesday, Purdie will soon figure out that Wednesdays aren't a day when she gets the workout and will accept that… I take my dogs out every week night except Thursday. For the half hour before I start getting ready to go out, the dogs are whining and agitating, but they don't make a sound on Thursdays… weird but true! Hopefully this will help! Sorry this is soooooo long!

OK, so toys are only exciting if the head of the household has it and it's not an ordinary mundane thing that always lying around the house. Tennis balls in my house are only for training. When the dogs see one, they're desperate to have it, because it's a high value item. Why is it high value? Because they have a quick game where it's thrown, they retrieve, it's bounced on the floor, they catch it, it goes back into my pocket and they're wondering where it went. Tui never used to retrieve. The ball being kept only for special occasions, has made her want and NEED this ball like never before. In flyball, if they want a game with me and the ball, they have to go over the obstacle course, get the ball and bring it back to me correctly BEFORE they can have the game. The trick is that the fun with the toy is the game with me - not just the toy itself. Some flydogs have great sendaways, but of course, they only want the ball, not the game with their handlers... Does that make any sense?

Ah right... cheers for explaining that both of you. Don't know if it's quite my bag, but I can see where AS is coming from. She's trying to get a patterned behaviour set before putting in distractions. Must be hard on you though Um, you know that training tricks doesn't necessarily have to be food rewarding don't you? I like training with a game at the end, and because I do flyball, I use a ball as a reward. They only get the game if they have done the thing I've asked (standing on hind legs is one we're doing atm).

No bun fight... was just trying to get my head around what you're doing with your dog... I've never heard of "grounding" a dog to that extent... so was just asking questions about your training methodology - that's all 'tis interesting to note that someone else used Time Out for their dog and got negative feedback on it, yet this seems to be ok by the same people... so was asking for clarification on what exactly you were doing and the reasons why... Is it working for you?

But I'm getting the impression that Purdy isn't getting enough stimulation at home and has been "grounded" for months?? Is this correct?

please?

Excuse me... can someone explain why your dog is "grounded"? What is the reasoning behind that exactly?

Just to isolate the "starvation" thing - one missed meal does not starve a dog. Sounds to me as if the person giving the advice was trying to find a "driver" to get the dog to pay attention to it's new handler. Unfortunately GSDs seem to me to be very one person dogs and take a long time to bond in to a new handler. They can also be highly strung dogs and I agree that a nervous, aggressive GSD really needs to be in experienced GSD hands. I love GSDs, how have I always ended up with bitzers?

oooooo I'm so super happy, I could swoon... The top 10 flygility dogs for the month were listed in the National Agility Link Association Magazine... and Raven's #7!!!!! I'm so chuffed!

Groan... my final words on this... I'll help Kathy with the WITH ME command - I've used it successfully with my own neurotic, fear aggressive (but only sometimes) completely unreadable, but stupidly gorgeous dog - and I believe that pre-empting is far better than anything else. Anyhoo, I'm going to leave you with a couple of thoughts and you can rant away happily - I won't be reading, so go for your life 1. The government sets a speed limit. You speed, you get a ticket. You do not get praised for staying within the speed limit, however. Do you still speed? 2. Dog is slightly hungry and has figured out that if he barks outrageously at somone, his handler will bring out the treats... does he still bark? Nothing wrong with a little firm, insistent commanding of your dog - we should use this on our children too incidentally... animals do understand consequences - provided the consequence happens immediately. Peace out!

This is the bit I didn't go into detail, prefering that Kathy ask for the info... which is at the bottom of my original post... doggie mum... chill man, you're all stressed... be calm, we're all here to help, right? My visual thoughts were meant to be amusing... was just sharing my humour with you...

I didn't say to use aggression - I agree that aggression breeds aggression - but, being firm isn't aggressive. I was defending Kathy's method in taking CB into a time out though and saying that shouldn't be construed as being "punishment". If you read my post, I suggest that Kathy uses a "WITH ME" command to pre-empt any barking... which traceymcl picked up on I just had this visual image of a freaked out barking dog, with some hapless member of the public pinned against a wall and the owner ineffectively clapping hands and calling in a squeaky voice "here Fido, look, I've got some cheese!"

Laugh - lots - I would not use a "fluffy" approach with a bolshy dog - I'd use a firm, insistent approach. I would be extremely firm if necessary and claps and cheese are for dogs who need encouraging, not dogs that are taking matters into their own hands by barking. So, the rest of my post? Pointless just taking one quote out - what about the rest of what I put? Do you disagree with that too?

I think you're all in danger of anthropomorphising here. CB isn't necessarily frightened, but when spooked, instead of running to mum who's the boss and supposed to be in charge and all emcompassing security, he's taking matters into his own hands and barking. I'm on Kathy's side here. Would you all be so fluffy with "give him cheese/liver/clap your hands, get excited" if he was lunging and biting? It's only one step away from barking at people... Now, I haven't met CB, but I'm of the opinion that * CB's a dog * Dogs need rules * CB's new rule is "no barking at people" * Zero tolerance to barking will stop it. Taking CB to the car and letting him miss out on the walk is fairly light punishment if you want to call it that. Whacking him on the nose is a punishment. Going back to the car and having time out is not punishment. Kathy, Raven is hit and miss with other dogs, so when I see one, I call "WITH ME" and she knows she's to stick by my side until the dog has passed. Perhaps you could teach this with CB. If you want the technique (it's so similar to a recall), then let me know. Diana

Then explain why my dogs fight over the top step of the stairs? And get quite tetchy about it too.... not being argumentative, but genuinely wondering... I don't believe that the wolf thing is the be all and end all of dog training, but I do believe that a dog must respect you before it will work for you...