Choke Chains

[alexis]

Someone on a forum I go on is adamant that used correctly and early with praise as well that a choke chain is a 'brilliant' way to teach a dog to walk on a lead without pulling. He says that used correctly you never choke or asphyxiate or compromise breathing in a dog. He even tells someone on the board who is anti choke chains that he is glad she'll never use one as he is sure she'd use it wrongly! Another person on there says he has been trying praise for a year and then went to a gundog training day where it sounds like they used slip leads in a similar way. He is now also praising this and saying it worked in 3 days and is the best way of training!

How can I try to persuade them otherwise?

Edited April 9, 2007 by alexis

[LurcherGirl]

I always wondered this how people can say that a choke chain works without hurting the dog, because the dog reacts on the noise of the chain... but at some point, the dog must have learnt that the noise means that pain is to follow. So at some point the dog must have been choked by the chain at least once or twice to learn that... How else would he know to stop pulling when he hears the chain noise? No-one's ever been able to answer me that question so far...

 

Vera

[Rudi]

Theoretically I suppose you could teach a dog that when he hears the sound of the chain, he gets a reward, I guess then if they pulled and you chinked the chain, the dog could come back to a close position and pay attention to you in order to get his reward?? You might be able to teach that without the dog getting strangled but I would have thought it unlikely...

 

I really don't think you can change the mind of people who are set in their ways like that, it's almost not worth entering into the argument. For every negative you throw at him, he'll probably just respond that problems arise when people don't know how to use a choke chain. At least he can see that if you can't use them "correctly" you shouldn't use them at all. Where I train, people use some old fashioned methods but I know they won't listen if I tried to explain that there are other ways, I just do my thing and let them see for themselves that more up to date training methods get results

 

Choke chains aren't the only way of damaging dogs necks and spines though - head collars used incorrectly can do a good job of that and my pet hate is seeing head collars and extending leads. A harsh snap of the lead even on a flat collar can do damage

Edited April 13, 2007 by Rudi

[Lindsay]

It's hard to persuade - there are 2 ways really, one is showing or explaining you can get good results without (ie don't use emotion, use how effective the non choke method is) or else use emotion, and try to get the person to care about whether or not they hurt their dog.

 

I used choke chains over 20 years ago and I was very good at using them. I was expert at timing and at checking the dog, but I'd never claim that I didn't hurt my dogs as I did Certainly at first. I feel quite sick thinking about it but I was brought up on Barbara Wood house and knew no better, just knew there had to be another way.

 

After I checked my big male fella and he cringed I stopped and never went back to that method. My dogs deserved better and I was determined to find it. I've been training without now for years and frankly for Obedience you can't do better than clicker (so precise!! which is what you need) Quote Mary Ray, etc. also Crufts winner and competitor such as Lynn Luckock with the bitch winner this year, - and for loose lead, I tend to use a mix of Premack principle, extra tasty food rewards, and turning in the opposite direction (not yanking but just showing the dog they need to not pull and it won't help even if they do).

 

Owners often want "results" in a few days but I believe that loose lead stuff is the hardest thing we teach our dogs - it's alien to them.

 

Choke chains work on a mix of positive punishment and negative reinforcement depending on how exactly they are used at the time. To me, a dog being aware he "could" be hurt physically is pants, but many people think the end justifies the means. At the end of the day, all one can do is get out there and show 'em dogs who are not trained that way and how effective the training is, and how obedient and happy the dogs are

 

Lindsayi

xx

Edited April 17, 2007 by Lindsay

[Sarah B]

Do what I did - a couple had a staff that they walked on a choke chain. I asked why not use a harness, but oh no choke chain was best way to go. I got the bloke to roll up his sleeve, put the chain around his upper arm, then got the woman to 'check' him. She didn't want to do it too hard in case she hurt him - I pointed out well you don't mind hurting the dog, so she gave the lead a bloody good yank. The language that came out of the blokes mouth!!! Needless to say they used training and a harness now

[murtle]

Do what I did - a couple had a staff that they walked on a choke chain. I asked why not use a harness, but oh no choke chain was best way to go. I got the bloke to roll up his sleeve, put the chain around his upper arm, then got the woman to 'check' him. She didn't want to do it too hard in case she hurt him - I pointed out well you don't mind hurting the dog, so she gave the lead a bloody good yank. The language that came out of the blokes mouth!!! Needless to say they used training and a harness now

 

 

perfect!

[chelseyfj]

i know someone who uses one at training but the dog still frolics around and is not better behaved than my terrors! but dont intend to use a choke chain but hve been told 3 quarter chokes are not bad? i dunno?

 

chels