Kazillions Of Rats - Eek

[Ratscallions]

I've spent the last few days helping lady, Lyn, in Northamptonshire who runs a small rescue. She's in a very difficult situation. Firstly, she was contacted last week by someone in Stockport wanting to surrender 9 (I think) rats to her. 9 seems like quite a few at one time, but she agreed, since she had the space at the time. She's arranged for a courier to bring them down this Wednesday coming.

 

[Lyn, if you're on here, feel free to jump in and correct me anywhere I get it wrong].

 

Subsequently she was contacted by a feeder breeder near her who has decided to stop breeding. I know many of us have been through the feeder breeder thing, and it really is an argument with yourself whether you help or whether you don't. From what I understand this guys wife has had a baby, and the expense and responsibility has come as somewhat of a shock to him; he's selling everything, including the racks etc. Hopefully that means he won't ever start again. He told Lyn that he had 75 rats needing somewhere, so she told him to bring them over. He turned up with about 100 rats all in one of those tiny racks, crammed up together. She couldn't take them all; it was just undoable. So she took the ones she knew wouldn't survive without help; babies who were away from their mothers already but only a few weeks of age. 39 of them.

 

I've run a couple of my spare cages down there for her to use for the moment, but it's not enough really. I picked up some Ecobed on the way and donated her some hammocks, water bottles, food bowls etc, but it's still going to cost her an absolute fortune. We talked about it, and we decided that we would try and take the rest from him .. we knew he had the rest that he'd taken to her and she'd turned away, plus he'd told her that he had 15 pregnant does at home still. But sadly he's already dealt with the rest of them. We can only speculate over what that actually means.

 

It's such a nightmare. What are rescues supposed to do in situations like this? If we do take rats from these people we're sentencing ourselves to weeks / months of stress, and inevitable financial torture, plus they so often go back to breeding anyway. But if we don't take the rats from them we know they're all going to die I feel so bad for her that she had to turn the others away .. and obviously so does she. She said she felt like the Grim Reaper.

 

Anyway. I don't have pictures of them yet; I forgot to take pics while I was there yesterday. But they are GORGEOUS. A lot of the boys are dumbos, most of the girls are top eared oddly. There are roans in there, variegateds, siamese, and a lot of blazes. Sorry I can't remember them better lol. They vary in age from about two or three weeks to six weeks I'd guess. The smallest little boy has a strange lump on his face; it looks like his jaw is dislocated but he's eating for england so I don't think it is, but there again it's not squishy, but could still be an abscess. Poor tiny fella. There's a girl with an eye problem too; her eyeball may be smaller than usual or something. When they arrived with Lyn they were all screachy and terrified of people; the guy had been picking them up by their tails. They were better at being handled yesterday, and she told me that they're even better today. I think they'll make fab pets when they do find homes.

 

Sooo .. provided I remember, I'll update you on how they're doing as they go

[Ratscallions]

Oops .. apparantly it's 39 coming from Stockport, not 9 .... OMG!!!!! :-o

[Laura_E]

Sorry to sound ignorant, but what is a feeder breeder?

 

It is so hard to say no to any animal, but the only people that should feel bad in this situation are the ones that are breeding these poor rats without any consideration for their welfare. You are doing the best you can under very difficult circumstances.

[Ratscallions]

Sorry to sound ignorant, but what is a feeder breeder?

 

It is so hard to say no to any animal, but the only people that should feel bad in this situation are the ones that are breeding these poor rats without any consideration for their welfare. You are doing the best you can under very difficult circumstances.

 

 

Hi Laura,

 

You know .. I didn't know until I bought some rats from one by accident a few years ago. Put it this way; some breeds of snake eat rats. Those rats have to come from somewhere. I could go into details about how they're kept and what they do with them, but I have a suspicion it'd be inappropriate for the forum. It's sad, put it that way

 

The people giving up animals to rescues rarely seem to feel bad. I had a delightful couple surrender their daughters rat to me last year; she was in hospital undergoing long term treatment and they felt it unfair to keep the rat without her there to love him. They are the only people I've felt were doing it for the right reasons .. and the only people to surrender and donate at the same time lol.

 

I've an update from Lyn that I'll post in a mo.

 

Nim

 

Update from Lyn this morning:

 

Just had a text to say stockport ones were collected at 630am so are on their way here. Cages all have bedding in and bottles filled. Have ordered some clips for the hammocks so they should be here tomorrow.

 

Have decided to call them Group 1 and Group 2. Group 1 are the feeders and group 2 the stockport ones, lol.

 

Group 1 are all doing well. Alastair was doing what he is always doing this morning, lol. He never stops eating, lol. His eye is looking better. Pippa's eye was closed this morning but I think it was sticky because of the tyacil. It is also looking better. Girls no longer are hiding away and are in hammock and sputnik as well as the igloo. I took out the plastic bowl and put in a ceramic bowl so they can't hide. They told me off this morning because their food bowl was empty... so empty they had to lick it clean. They even eat the alfa pellets! Boys on the other hand are watching their waistlines.

[Laura_E]

Hi Laura,

 

You know .. I didn't know until I bought some rats from one by accident a few years ago. Put it this way; some breeds of snake eat rats. Those rats have to come from somewhere. I could go into details about how they're kept and what they do with them, but I have a suspicion it'd be inappropriate for the forum. It's sad, put it that way

 

That is awful. Poor animals

 

I saw some idiot a few years post on a forum asking where he could buy live rats to feed his snake Totally cruel and unnecessary.

[Sarah B]

Not everyone who breeds mice/rats for feeders treats their animals badly. I keep snakes (most are rescues), and I was so sickened by the state of the mice I was buying frozen I decided to start breeding them myself. Mine are kept like pets in a huge tank, plenty of varied food and water, lots of stimulation like branches, wheels, tubes etc and then they are euthanised by myself as stresslessly as possible. 'Feeder' rodents are usually kept in rodent stacks with no stimulation, and euthanised in a Co2 chamber; commercially this is a tank where hundreds are crammed in at one time, the gas is put in far too quickly so the animals become very distressed. I had several batches of frozen mice that had blood coming from their mouths and other signs of horrendous distress that I won't go into. I can't feed my snakes knowing that the mice were being so cruelly treated, so took the decision to do it myself knowing I can treat these mice as well as possible with the respect they deserve.

 

It really annoys me when people keep 'feeder' animals like this - the least breeders can do is give the animals the respect and care they need

 

Feeding live mice is completely unnecessary and also totally illegal in the UK unless you have a vets report for the animal.

 

 

Good luck with rehoming them - can we have some piccies soon? Would love some more pet rats but just don't have the room at the moment (plus I doubt any rescue would rehome to me because of the mice)

Edited April 21, 2010 by Sarah B

[Ratscallions]

That is awful. Poor animals

 

I saw some idiot a few years post on a forum asking where he could buy live rats to feed his snake Totally cruel and unnecessary.

 

Well, if you see anything like that again it may be useful to know where the law stands on it. I don't remember which act it is offhand, but could look it up if anyone wishes to know. Shops are not allowed to sell vertebrates (animals with a spine) as live food. That means no rats, rabbits, etc, but they are allowed to sell locusts, brickets, mealworms etc. They are allowed to sell frozen though, or breed their own

[Ratscallions]

Not everyone who breeds mice/rats for feeders treats their animals badly. I keep snakes (most are rescues), and I was so sickened by the state of the mice I was buying frozen I decided to start breeding them myself. Mine are kept like pets in a huge tank, plenty of varied food and water, lots of stimulation like branches, wheels, tubes etc and then they are euthanised by myself as stresslessly as possible. 'Feeder' rodents are usually kept in rodent stacks with no stimulation, and euthanised in a Co2 chamber; commercially this is a tank where hundreds are crammed in at one time, the gas is put in far too quickly so the animals become very distressed. I had several batches of frozen mice that had blood coming from their mouths and other signs of horrendous distress that I won't go into. I can't feed my snakes knowing that the mice were being so cruelly treated, so took the decision to do it myself knowing I can treat these mice as well as possible with the respect they deserve.

 

It really annoys me when people keep 'feeder' animals like this - the least breeders can do is give the animals the respect and care they need

 

Feeding live mice is completely unnecessary and also totally illegal in the UK unless you have a vets report for the animal.

 

 

Good luck with rehoming them - can we have some piccies soon? Would love some more pet rats but just don't have the room at the moment (plus I doubt any rescue would rehome to me because of the mice)

 

Sarah,

 

It was precisely because I knew it would cause an argument that I didn't describe what happens with feeder animals. Obviously you have more experience than me since you've done it yourself, but as a rescue I've dealt with it several times, and every time the people involved have not even bothered with the C02 chamber (nb, straight in the freezer). I have to disagree with you slightly .. if the animals were treated with the respect they deserve they wouldn't be fed as food to start with. Also, you're not quite right on the live feeding; the law only states that shops cannot sell any animal knowingly as live food. You're allowed to breed them yourself as live food, and you're allowed to buy whatever you want provided the shop owner doesn't know what you're going to do with it.

 

As far as I'm concerned the whole rats as food thing sucks .. but I'm a little biased

 

Piccies will be coming in a bit

 

Why would a rescue not rehome to someone who has mice? (Confused).

 

Nim

 

p.s

I meant any vertebrate, not animal.

 

Todays update:

Update time:-

 

Group 1 (feeders) are doing so well and growing nicely. The girls now starfish at me and quite a few of them seem really pleased to see me when I come in now. Judging by the amount of food they have eaten since Sunday I think their little tummies are very full now. Their food bowl this morning still had food in it, which is a first. Normally it is licked clean. The boys are also doing very well and a few of them are definite squishes in the making. Now they are settling I will attempt to do a photo shoot when I have some help passing two and fro.

 

Group 2 (Stockport). These are lovely kits. Girls have been a bit skittish and one in particular is a screamer but hasn't bitten me. She will be better once I keep hassling her to be friendly. There are four mums about to give birth any day now so need to get more birthing cages. The three nursing mums have got lovely babies (see here http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/102147299750208371178/BabyRats240410?feat=email#) and I am already getting reservations for them. I'm not sure what sexes yet so will take another look later. There are four boys who aged 6-18 months who are skittish but I think they will be fine once they come out to play. I doubt they have ever had that luxury. He is a lovely breeder who owned them but his personal circumstances have meant they have not had his usual attention hence some are shy but nice natured. The baby boys from this lot are lovely and friendly.

 

If anyone can donate any birthing cages and would like to donate food or bedding it would be very much appreciated.

 

Any adoption enquires please through myself or Nim.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Ratscallions

[Ratscallions]

What we've all been waiting for ... piiiiiictures!!!

 

These are pics of the babies that arrived from Stockport yesterday. The full album is here:

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/102147299750208371178/BabyRats240410?feat=email#

 

And here are just a few of them:

 

 

 

 

[Laurel n Hardy]

i know its a daft question but what do rats that have been bred feed on,

also what bedding do they have ?

[Sarah B]

...every time the people involved have not even bothered with the C02 chamber (nb, straight in the freezer).

That is horrible - rodents less than 24 hours old don't have the receptors to feel the cold, so they just go straight to sleep and pass away, but any older than this and it causes a great deal of pain

 

I have to disagree with you slightly .. if the animals were treated with the respect they deserve they wouldn't be fed as food to start with.

My snakes have as much of a right to life as any mouse. in the natural order of things, there are predators and prey. In the wild animals are being consumed all the time, however in captivity I will try my best that feeder animals do not suffer as much as their wild counterparts.

 

Also, you're not quite right on the live feeding; the law only states that shops cannot sell any animal knowingly as live food.

You are actually right - nowhere does it state the act of feeding live vertebrates itself is illegal - on the Defra website it says -

 

Although the Protection of Animals Acts 1911 to 1964 do not prohibit the feeding of animals with live prey, the live feeding of vertebrate prey should be avoided save in exceptional circumstances, and then only under veterinary advice. Where any live prey must be used, its welfare must be considered as well as any potential injury which might be caused to the predator.

However, it is illegal to cause any animal pain and suffering. A mouse being eaten alive by a snake will no doubt experience pain and suffering.

 

Why would a rescue not rehome to someone who has mice? (Confused).

Because my mice I breed to feed my snakes, and I am sure most rescues would feel that there was a possibility I might breed the rats to feed the snakes too.

[Laura_E]

The forum that I saw the post on was American. I'm not sure what laws they have in place over there to protect rodents, but having seen first hand the conditions that they keep pet store animals in, I don't have much faith

 

When I was on holiday in LA my friend and I were evicted from the mall after I stressed my concerns for several puppies that were being kept in tiny glass cabinets with bright beaming lights glaring down on them. They looked weak, ill and miserable. The shop keeper seemed to find it hilarious that I was so concerned, which was incredibly frustrating and just proved the point that he had no interest in the welfare of the animals at all, it was all about profit. This was a pet store in the prestigious Beverly Center, so I dread to think of the conditions that animals are subjected to in shops with less salubrious settings.

 

Anyway sorry for going off topic, I'm good at that Glad to hear that there have been lots enquiries, the pups (if that's the right term for baby rats?!) look so sweet, particularly the little hairless ones.

[Ratscallions]

That is horrible - rodents less than 24 hours old don't have the receptors to feel the cold, so they just go straight to sleep and pass away, but any older than this and it causes a great deal of pain

 

 

My snakes have as much of a right to life as any mouse. in the natural order of things, there are predators and prey. In the wild animals are being consumed all the time, however in captivity I will try my best that feeder animals do not suffer as much as their wild counterparts.

 

 

You are actually right - nowhere does it state the act of feeding live vertebrates itself is illegal - on the Defra website it says -

 

 

However, it is illegal to cause any animal pain and suffering. A mouse being eaten alive by a snake will no doubt experience pain and suffering.

 

 

Because my mice I breed to feed my snakes, and I am sure most rescues would feel that there was a possibility I might breed the rats to feed the snakes too.

 

Erm .. I'm uncertain of how to edit the message like you did. But .. the rats I've known frozen alive were not that young; I have no doubt that they do it that young too. I never said a snake did not have a right to life. I did not know the pain and suffering part of the law, can you tell me where that is please as I'd find it useful for future reference (PM me please). Ah, you hadn't said that you still breed, or that they were mice, hence the question.

[Ratscallions]

i know its a daft question but what do rats that have been bred feed on,

also what bedding do they have ?

 

It's never a daft question if you don't know the answer Laurel lol.

 

It's a silly answer, but .. rat food! lol. Wild rats, as you're probably aware, eat anything and everything. Rats are omnivores, so they pretty much eat the same as humans, which is why it's so easy for them to live where we live. The pet foods designed for rats contain a diet balanced for their specific needs (in theory). There are several brands of rat food, I personally use Pets@Home nuggets and Science Selective. Some people mix their own food for their rats. Then of course you can feed them part of what you eat as treats.

 

Bedding, well, the biggest no no is wood shavings. They contain oils called phenols (which give pine it's unique scent); these have a corrosive effect on a rats respiratory tract which causes respiratory problems; often they don't show these problems til later in life though. There are a lot of other products you can use, though most of them aren't in pet shops. I have been using megazorb til recently, but it's a problem for one of my rats, so I use Ecobed at the moment. They then need stuff to nest with also; I use Safebed, but you can use shredded paper and other things. Most people give their rats hammocks though lol.

[Ratscallions]

The forum that I saw the post on was American. I'm not sure what laws they have in place over there to protect rodents, but having seen first hand the conditions that they keep pet store animals in, I don't have much faith

 

When I was on holiday in LA my friend and I were evicted from the mall after I stressed my concerns for several puppies that were being kept in tiny glass cabinets with bright beaming lights glaring down on them. They looked weak, ill and miserable. The shop keeper seemed to find it hilarious that I was so concerned, which was incredibly frustrating and just proved the point that he had no interest in the welfare of the animals at all, it was all about profit. This was a pet store in the prestigious Beverly Center, so I dread to think of the conditions that animals are subjected to in shops with less salubrious settings.

 

Anyway sorry for going off topic, I'm good at that Glad to hear that there have been lots enquiries, the pups (if that's the right term for baby rats?!) look so sweet, particularly the little hairless ones.

 

Ummm .. well in the US, the laws vary from state to state. I don't think any of them actually have a law that protect rats from being used as live food though. I've a lot of friends who 'rescue' rats from feeder bins in pet shops over there; but this obvioulsy just results in more being bred for the same use

 

Woah. It's sad that pet stores are like that. I actually remember a pet store near my school when I was a child keeping puppies and kittens in very similar conditions (in the UK); you hardly ever see puppies and kittens in pet stores over here anymore. I think it's because the law now makes it very hard for pet stores to stock them; for example you're not allowed to keep puppies from different litters in the same pens.

 

Baby rats are called kits or kittens. I call them babies hehehehe I think, in those pics, that the hairless ones are only hairless because they've not developed any fur yet lol; I could be wrong though as I've not checked the album yet today (she may have added some).

 

Lyn was sounding very chipper this morning; she's got enquiries coming in, and help coming in, and she's loving seeing their progress