snow Posted June 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Is it really so wrong for large stores which arguably are institutions, to take moral/ethical stances, regardless of whether or not we agree with them? I love the fact that Sainsbury's refuse to sell battery eggs for instance. Let's face it, our society has a lot wrong with it, we as individual actors need a bit of help! I hate being charged for bags when it's a case of buy a bag or have none at all (M&S!) but I understand and agree with the principles and it's up to me to prepare better or accept I have to pay. I of course won't be saying that next time I drop my shopping all over the car park floor as I struggle to carry everything without the bag I couldn't afford to buy It's one thing refusing to sell battery eggs (which they no doubt get a great deal of publicity for and "political" capital from) but are they as ethical about everything else sold in that store? Is the company 100% green? Only then would they hold the moral high ground and can then seek to inform me of the different options available but they absolutely never ever should presume to moralise AT me. BTW the 100% green question is rhetorical - they aren't and never can be how many of their goods are produced in China? Or India? Or USA? Do they only deliver if the delivery is green? - answer is no to that btw as I have deliveries from them from time to time - Ocado who do try to be the greenest of the supermarkets do offer suggested "green slots" and where possible I opt for one of those but they aren't always available when I want one and so even they will do me a straight delivery when I want it. ALL the supermarkets need to put their own houses in order before they lecture their customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 We were in B&Q recently and they were charging for a carrier bag, or you could have a recycled one for free. The recycled ones were those from other shops and were stuffed in a box under the till. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reds Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) Don't disagree with you Snow, I in cynical mind think the bag policy is a simple cost saving matter! Does it really matter why they do it though, in the grand scheme of things? Making it hard for people to buy alcohol and trying to limit under age drinking for instance, is surely a good outcome and more important than the other activities of the supermarket producing that outcome? Edited June 4, 2009 by reds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 legal type peeps will be able to clear this one up. apparently there used to be a law if you offered the 'the coinage of the realm' (cash) for a product and they refused to take it, then the item was deemed free as they didnt want your money. not sure if thats a really archaic law thats been phased out, or it still stands. If it does just walk off with the item (ie alcohol) A licencee has the right to refuse to sell to anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted June 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Don't disagree with you Snow, I in cynical mind think the bag policy is a simple cost saving matter! Does it really matter why they do it though, in the grand scheme of things? Making it hard for people to buy alcohol and trying to limit under age drinking for instance, is surely a good outcome and more important than the other activities of the supermarket producing that outcome? Yeah it does matter to me when I go shopping I expect to be treated as the customer, I'm old fashioned perhaps but whatever happened to me being valued by the store? I expect them to supply me with the goods I want to buy, when I want to buy them at a price I am willing to pay, and it would be nice to be rewarded for my custom and my loyalty. Nowadays it's lectures and as if they are doing ME a service - which they aren't any more when they don't give me a bag to carry my shopping home in and resuse over and over - I would even happily pay 1 or 2p a bag if that meant I could have one, but I seriously dont want or need a shop lecturing me about my private life and habits especially when it's uninvited and hypocritical. As for the alcohol issue - if I have proven I am over 18 then the law says I am legally entitled to buy alcohol, if I cannot prove it then the store has a right to refuse to sell to me and I 100% agree with that - but to refuse to sell to me because I happened to take my kids with me shopping? Or because I was talking to someone in the queue who is under age on the basis that I "might" be buying it for them based on nothing more than the fact we spoke to each other? That is just plain wrong - I can absolutely understand that it might seem to be a small thing, but from small injustices like this that aren't challenged bigger ones follow - indeed this very campaign began with an under 21 scheme and now they have moved on to the under 25 yr olds- whats next 30 yr olds? 40? 50? Hmmmmm so then everyone will need an id card ....hmmmmm and didnt the mood of the public turn about to be utterly opposed to national identity cards?? Besides do they really think this will stop over 18's buying alcohol for under age drinkers? All it means is that they will wait round the corner and not be seen with whoever is doing the buying .... more to the point tho and why I get so annoyed at this is that the UK is very much turning into a country whereby the majority are punished for the actions of the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 At the risk of being shot to pieces I have to say that people buying alcohol on behalf of under age drinkers - I'm talking people with a serious intent to supply - is a real problem While this new regime might be a bit overzealous (and certainly I agree has issues), I think we do need to find a way to get people to stop intentionally buying alcohol to give to young people who then go and get drunk out and about and do all kinds of damage (not least to themselves). And as a licensee I have a lot of sympathy with the difficulty of knowing when someone is buying with 'pure' motives and when someone is not. I have questioned even very local well known customers about who the take-out they are buying is for, because I know they keep company with underage people. I have responsibilities not to supply under-age drinkers, even indirectly. We would end up banning someone who we found deliberately was doing this - our local LVA has done exactly that just recently. Of course, as a licensee (and a human being...) I also have huge problems with supermarkets for all other kinds of reasons...not least the disgracefully low prices they charge for alcohol (especially high strength) which makes it cheaper than bottled water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishPastry Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) We were in B&Q recently and they were charging for a carrier bag, or you could have a recycled one for free. The recycled ones were those from other shops and were stuffed in a box under the till. great idea! We shop at a large 24 hour ASDA and have no problem what so ever. Usually we bring our own old carrierbags that we reuse, buit sometimes we shop without having planned for it, and they always let us have bags without questioning it. I love our ASDA, the staff are all super friendly edited for spelling Edited June 4, 2009 by DanishPastry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoebejo Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 As for the plastic bags - like Ian says the hypocrisy of a supermarket chain lecturing anyone about green issues beggars belief - they should take a bloody long hard look at their own carbon footprints and emmissions contributions let alone the packaging etc long LONG before they dare to lecture the customer. And if they are so sooooo concerned about the environment then hey here's an idea why not make their bags biodegradable then everyone is happy? That new campaign in the supermarket really got my goat I shop in Sainsburys twice a week and the very first time I went in there when they had stopped leaving bags on the counter I was spoken to like a social leper for not having my own bags with me The checkout woman got really arsey with me, spoke down her nose and started ranting about the environment. She begrudgingly handed over two bags at a time and made me feel as if each one was coming directly out of her wages I got the impression I was supposed to feel shameful The next time I shopped there and went through the bag rigmarole again I pointed out that they should make their bags with the same material they use on some of their pre-packed fruit & veg, it's bio-degradable and can go in a compost bin. Apparently it's too expensive Thankfully the novelty wore off and more often than not there are bags on the counter now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 It's easy to say don't give supermarkets your business but certainly around here theres no other choice, all the local grocery shops were bought out years ago, we have 2 shops in this relatively small village - one is Tesco Express the other is the Co-Op. In the surrounding villages I cannot think of a single independant grocery store and can only come up with 1 off license which is no bigger than my front room with a correspondingly small variety of goods on offer and which cannot even begin to compete with the supermarket prices. My objection is to supermarkets actually thinking they have any right to make moral/ethical/legal judgements about me when I THE CUSTOMER am intending to give them my business and hard earned cash. Who the hell are they to decide what I intend to do with my bottle of booze once I have purchased it? It's NONE of their concern, they have the power to tell the alcohol retail association to shove it up their backsides and bog off and mind their own damned buisness. Retail of Alcohol Standards Group is a cooperative and membership is entirely VOLUNTARY - it has no legal enforcement powers whatsoever. They are asking the check out staff to make a presumption of GUILT or of INTENT TO COMIT A CRIME - well excuse me but I thought I lived in a country which has the fundamental value that a person is INNOCENT until PROVED guilty and that I can only be proved guilty after recourse to the law and if necessary a jury of my peers and not based on whether the checkout assistant thinks I might be thinking of doing something illegal. As for the plastic bags - like Ian says the hypocrisy of a supermarket chain lecturing anyone about green issues beggars belief - they should take a bloody long hard look at their own carbon footprints and emmissions contributions let alone the packaging etc long LONG before they dare to lecture the customer. And if they are so sooooo concerned about the environment then hey here's an idea why not make their bags biodegradable then everyone is happy? Like a lot of people I recycle my bags for poop scooping, or they are used for storage, packaging stuff etc etc. I cannot think of a single plastic bag that leaves this house without being used several times over before being disposed of, the cynic in me feels that the supermarkets see money in this - they know people reuse the bags over and over again, and if we haven't got those bags available we will have to buy bags to replace them....and who will be the ones profiting from that? Lemme thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink hmmmm could it be the supermarkets perhaps? And where might they get these bags from? hmmmmmmm maybe from China the country with the worlds worst pollution and enviromental record? Thats really green - NOT. In some respects I couldn't help but - as I've never seen you so steamed up about anything I don't think - but think I know just what you mean though we are fortunate enough to be awash with choice in this area (there are at least 2 Asda, a Morrisons, a Tesco Express, a larger Co-op, two smaller co-ops, a couple of Londi's & a village store all within about 8 miles of my house & plenty more if you go just a little further off than that so perhaps less scope for them to dictate anything around here) I too view their real motives on bags more cynically than being green though (to be fair to Asda they do replace the reusable bags FOC here when necessary) & suspect that re-usables are cheaper for them than either throw aways or bio-degrable bags. Whilst I appreciate the licensees amongst you & the need to not have drunken yobs of any age rampaging the streets at will I think what Snow is suggesting is that clearly there should be common sense applied. If you happen to have the children with you whilst buying alcohol it doesn't necessarily imply that you are intending giving it to them & whilst I don't have kids myself, if I did have a teenage & decided to let them drink in moderation at home for example then who the hell is some supermarket assistant to tell me how to parent my kids? - as Snow says they are a business who should value my custom not the morals police or any source of authority whatsoever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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