Alison Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Briliant!! Alison i have a book you can borrow if you would like? Its a Karen Pryor one and very good (can't remember the title ) Pm me your address if you would like That's so kind And yes, I would like very much please! I'd never used a clicker before and just can't believe how effective it is. I suspect that my victims subjects to date have all been quite easy (quick to learn, pleased to please etc.) but am truly convinced that with hard work and practice it would work in any situation. If I had kids, guess how I'd be training them? Seriously though, my remark about Dog no.1 not being treat orientated and me taking just a few minutes with the clicker to persuade him that he was really is true. I guess that's probably the key - starting right at the beginning if that's what it takes. I've heard people say "oh, he's not interested in anything so it wouldn't be any use" but unless they've actually got a stuffed toy rather than a real dog, this surely can't be the case. I think that knowing your dog really well also helps a lot. Unfortunately for Sol I know precisely what he's thinking even when he's walking way ahead of me just from the angle of his ears viewed from behind. Being attuned to his body language has been the greatest tool that I could possibly have used in conjunction with the clicker. I've refined things to quite a sophisticated degree with Sol now. I carry an empty little 33cl plastic water bottle and although he's brilliant with other dogs now, I was noticing that there were times when he was struggling to be so (i.e. if they were being overly boisterous with him). Although he was struggling, thanks to the clicker training he did keep a lid on it but I felt that there was something more I could do so that he didn't need to (struggle with his feelings). I now keep his aggressive thoughts in that bottle so that he knows they're still there but safe with me; he can look at them at any time he feels he needs to (and does so when he's feeling under pressure) so doesn't have to use them himself. It's fascinating to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LurcherGirl Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 Cycas and Jemimap A quick update on Dog 1 - recall training. He picked it up brilliantly and incredibly quickly. Needless to say, his owners are delighted. He also "sat" on command, something they'd not previously imagined possible (dog no.1 is a dog and not a bitch, oops! My mistake) A couple of photos taken this morning: Many thanks again Fantastic! To be honest, I don't think I would have been able to train my lurchers for obedience at all if it wasn't for clicker training! It is the only thing that works for such independent minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 The difference in Dylan since clicker training is massive, he has now realised HE can affect whether he gets a click and you can see him trying to work out what it is i want him to do. I've got a really lovely "problem" that I'm sure someone can help me with. As per Jemima P's quote, Sol realised almost from the moment I started using it that he can affect whether he gets a click. We were already very bonded and if it's possible to believe, the clicker has brought us even closer. The laughs we have together just make my day He does things like seeing a cat in a gateway, making a really obvious show of ignoring it then sitting nicely in front of me, waiting for the click (and treat ). He knows that I know he's trying it on and we both burst out laughing - this is something he became good at yonks ago (he was a cat chaser until the advent of the clicker). What a cheeky chancer, expecting a click for something we both know he's already good at! I still click and treat occasionally for such things but more usually ask him for something more, like, for example, lying and staying in the cat gateway with the cat by his side until I call him back to me. I'm running out of ideas though; everything I've asked him to do, he does and I need more "tricks" to try. He'll pirouette however many times I ask at a distance then sit, he'll do "dog down" (sorry, not very up on obedience terms) then up into "sit" and back down again if I ask. Send away and sit and/or down are also under his belt now and as per the original thread title, I'm of small brain - and imagination! What else can I get him to do? I'd prefer it to be something we can do when we're out and about together rather than tricks in the home which are way too easy for him. Heelwork to music (well my singing ) has been fun and I've also had him jumping back and forth through my legs while I do handstands. A prison governor pal frequently makes like an agility jump while Sol leaps over her, much to everyone's amusement - including some of the inmates by all accounts when they see the photos! Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 weave through your legs while you are walking join your hands and make a circle with your arms - like a hoop- and get him to jump through walk backwards away from you come back to you backwards. add a 'stand' to your sit and down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 (edited) How about joining stuff together to make sequences? The classic one is combining down / crawl / roll over and play dead to make commando dog death sequence... Left / right - building on send away or teach him to count? or to play hide and seek outside? sort of anyway... commands at a distance edited to say...Sol sounds fabulous Edited November 23, 2007 by Abby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanrossscot Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Mary Ray has a book with loads of diff tricks. 'Dog Tricks' which is really good and will give you some more ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Mollydog is not as clever as Sol, but she likes to shake paws, do roly poly and 'find the object' (started that when I was in my long quest to teach Mollydog to retrieve. She never got it and I've now given up. We worked on it for about 2 years, so we weren't easily discouraged, but I think she just doesn't like the idea). Oh, I also trained her to run and pose in a dramatic manner, for ease of photography. Now as soon as I get the camera out she starts planning action shots! (Az thinks 'give paw' is a sign language word for 'tripe stick', and will come and ask for one that way... There's a clever brain in there somewhere but it's got layers of worry wrapped round it, even clicker training can bother him if he thinks I'm expecting something and he can't work it out quickly, or copy Mollydog. Poor Az. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Fabulous suggestions - I can't wait to try them! weave through your legs while you are walking join your hands and make a circle with your arms - like a hoop- and get him to jump through walk backwards away from you come back to you backwards. add a 'stand' to your sit and down These all sound right up our street. I'm not sure my arms are long enough to make a sufficiently large hoop for Sol to jump through. Regrettably I know plenty of knuckle draggers - by no means all women either! - who're daft enough to be roped in for that one though. I'll try and get some pics of Sol performing. He likes agility all the more when the equipment is human for some reason! I often wonder about his past; maybe he ran away from the circus? When asking him to do it at a distance, I'm currently using my outstretched arm, hand palm-up, and raising it from knee level to shoulder level (plus the word sit) to ask him for "up" into a sit. What signal and/or word command ought I to use for getting him up into "stand"? Both arms instead of just the one maybe so he knows the difference? I've never been to any training classes, so everything we do has just been guesswork so far using my very basic grasp of common sense and Sol's tolerance of my incompetence. We go busking and he'll already weave through my legs and jump over them, Ã la dancing; maybe I could do a bit more with this though. Walking backwards away from me is something we started trying recently with some success. He'll do it for a few steps then start fooling about but I'm sure I can build on this. The whole point of this for us is that it's fun but I just need to start asking him for a few more steps at a time, probably with a "down" to signify the end of that particular trick. I've never tried asking him to walk backwards towards me though and will give it a go. Getting him to reverse through my legs might be a good way to embark on this - what do you think? How about joining stuff together to make sequences? The classic one is combining down / crawl / roll over and play dead to make commando dog death sequence... Left / right - building on send away or teach him to count? or to play hide and seek outside? sort of anyway... commands at a distance edited to say...Sol sounds fabulous These sound both constructive and fun Abby, just our sort of thing. Can you explain a bit more though? I love the thought of him counting but how would I go about that? What do you mean by the left and right thing? He's fine with commands at a distance (if 30 yards or so counts as distance - he won't go much further away from me than that as a consequence of me asking him not to when he first came to me and I don't think I want to change that). The Commando Dog Death sequence will definitely appeal to the drama king in him Mary Ray has a book with loads of diff tricks. 'Dog Tricks' which is really good and will give you some more ideas That's definitely on my Christmas list now, thanks San Mollydog is not as clever as Sol, but she likes to shake paws, do roly poly and 'find the object' (started that when I was in my long quest to teach Mollydog to retrieve. She never got it and I've now given up. We worked on it for about 2 years, so we weren't easily discouraged, but I think she just doesn't like the idea). Oh, I also trained her to run and pose in a dramatic manner, for ease of photography. Now as soon as I get the camera out she starts planning action shots! (Az thinks 'give paw' is a sign language word for 'tripe stick', and will come and ask for one that way... There's a clever brain in there somewhere but it's got layers of worry wrapped round it, even clicker training can bother him if he thinks I'm expecting something and he can't work it out quickly, or copy Mollydog. Poor Az. ) I don't think that Sol's any cleverer than Molly or any other dog you know. We went to visit a pal and her greyhound and lurcher girls this afternoon and she said something similar - people often do - but it's worth remembering how much easier everything is with just one dog. Plus Sol came to me ready made, an amiable steady lad without issues but a huge willingness to please and achieve, so I certainly can't claim any credit. As for the camera thing though, I know just what you mean. I've noticed that where most dogs get excited when the lead comes out, with Sol me picking up the camera = "we're going somewhere"! Something tells me I might be a bit obssessive about photographing him - how embarrassing He also pretends that the sound of me removing the lens cap is exactly the same as the noise his clicker makes in yet another crafty ploy to extort treats. Yep, I think if anything "send away" might be my most useful command to date! Thanks again everyone for such fun suggestions. I think we're really going to enjoy trying these out together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanrossscot Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 For distance control to get Tia into a stand I use a foot ie - verbal "Tia back" then I raise my foot a little. With Glen it is a closed fist facing towards him. They should both do it eventually without the verbal command tho' I leave it in because I will use it in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 I don't think that Sol's any cleverer than Molly or any other dog you know. We went to visit a pal and her greyhound and lurcher girls this afternoon and she said something similar - people often do - but it's worth remembering how much easier everything is with just one dog. Well, OK, perhaps she is perhaps less wishful to please, or maybe lazy! She is very greedy, and I had her as an only dog for 2 years before I adopted Az, and I work from home and am with her pretty much all the time, so in theory she should be an ideal candidate for learning from clicker training. She does enjoy it, but she has very little stamina and usually (not always) loses interest very quickly. She's never been keen to volunteer behaviours in the way you describe Sol being, and it takes her ages to learn a new one, though of course it's great fun when she finally gets it! After years of trying a every day for months on end, several different ways, to try to get her to retrieve, I never managed to get her to do it reliably. There may be someone out there who could coax her to do it more than once, but she just doesn't want to do it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackmagic Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 For the stand I extend my right arm out to the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jago Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 Just to add my wee bit, I have found clicker training fab! Jago loves it as i think it makes it clear to him what exactly I want him to do. We have been working on "look at me" and the clicker makes it so easy to mark exactly when his eyes meet mine and mark exactly the behaviour I am looking for. It has been revelation and I am loving training with it as it makes it so easy and very very enjoyable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 For the stand I extend my right arm out to the side. Further to my reply to sanrossscot, my imagination is so lacking This too is a great idea and one which Sol will pick up on very quickly, I'm sure. Just to add my wee bit, I have found clicker training fab! Jago loves it as i think it makes it clear to him what exactly I want him to do. We have been working on "look at me" and the clicker makes it so easy to mark exactly when his eyes meet mine and mark exactly the behaviour I am looking for. It has been revelation and I am loving training with it as it makes it so easy and very very enjoyable! I, and I'm sure everyone here, will be delighted that you and Jago are loving his clicker training. Welcome to the clicker fan club! The whole reason I started with the clicker was to address Sol's one and only fault - aggression towards other dogs at big events. "Look at me" was the most effective thing imaginable and has resolved the issue completely. It does however have a bit of downside for me and Sol though in certain situations. At agility for example, he was becoming so focused on me that he wasn't concentrating on the task in hand - things like the seesaw - so we've had to tone it down a bit for stuff like that. I show him that I'm putting the clicker in my pocket so he knows he's not going to be asked to look at me and must concentrate on what he's doing - tipping the balance on the seesaw and touching the contact points. It's been brilliant for things like potential cat chasing though - "look" has him sitting and gazing into my eyes and giving the would-be feline victim not a second thought. Completely stops him in his tracks which I think is a fantastic thing from the perspective of his safety. To know that all I have to say is "look" and that he'll respond instantly gives me great comfort in that I know he won't pursue a kitty. 7 cars in the space of an hour constitute rush hour where I live, but it would just take one cat running across the road and one of those infrequent cars passing at just that moment for Ginge to be splattered all over the road. "Look at me" is a brilliant and useful command. For distance control to get Tia into a stand I use a foot ie - verbal "Tia back" then I raise my foot a little. With Glen it is a closed fist facing towards him. They should both do it eventually without the verbal command tho' I leave it in because I will use it in competition. D'oh! I'm such a thickie I'd never considered using my feet as signals . This is going to open up whole new worlds for me so thanks for that! Well, OK, perhaps she is perhaps less wishful to please, or maybe lazy! She is very greedy, and I had her as an only dog for 2 years before I adopted Az, and I work from home and am with her pretty much all the time, so in theory she should be an ideal candidate for learning from clicker training. She does enjoy it, but she has very little stamina and usually (not always) loses interest very quickly. She's never been keen to volunteer behaviours in the way you describe Sol being, and it takes her ages to learn a new one, though of course it's great fun when she finally gets it! After years of trying a every day for months on end, several different ways, to try to get her to retrieve, I never managed to get her to do it reliably. There may be someone out there who could coax her to do it more than once, but she just doesn't want to do it for me. I think that there may be a large chunk of Vizsla in Sol's (charming) mutty mix and that that element makes him so easy to work with. Retrieval seems to be instinctive and fun for him and something I can use to advantage. For example, in his first go at agility, all I had to do was chuck his ball over the jumps, through the tunnels etc. and off he went after it. It could be argued that a brighter dog would've taken less effort and gone round the obstacles! I've found that a lone Greyhound (in the case of my fosters) is just not up for retrieving at all but in Sol's company they really go for it - it's as if they need to be shown what to do. They copy him then go on retrieving happily once they're settled in their new homes. The same has happened with swimming. I hasten to add that these greys have all been ex-racers, blank canvasses in essence, who've had no idea that they couldn't/shouldn't retrieve or swim. I've also found that Greyhounds have a much shorter attention span than Sol. I think that HPR breeds can be quite obssessive about tasks set for them which is also useful. Having said that, I start all these "training" things and tricks in very small chunks. If he takes a few steps backwards away from me for example, I click, reward and leave it at that for the day. The next day I ask for a few more steps so he never gets bored, it's never a chore for him and he always returns home feeling like a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycas Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 (edited) I've found that a lone Greyhound (in the case of my fosters) is just not up for retrieving at all but in Sol's company they really go for it - it's as if they need to be shown what to do. That's definitely been the case with other things - stiles, dog-doors, those odd gates that are enclosed in a sort of triangle of fence. I borrowed my mother's collies to demo and that really worked well, once she'd seen how it was done (and practiced it a number of times), she was away. She'll swim too, if the weather is warm enough and other dogs are in there. But balls, no. She will run round a dog chasing a ball, bouncing like a loon and barking for him to run faster, but she will not pick it up in her mouth. There was one occasion when she stole a stick that Smudge was chasing. She proudly ran a nice clean racing-type circuit with it in her mouth, then dropped it at the 'finishing line' before returning to me. There was probably a chance there to click for doing it right - if she ever did it again which she never has.... Az can fetch, only having a loony Mollydog bouncing round him shouting 'RUN RUN RUN!' tends to put him off a bit. Edited November 24, 2007 by cycas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs B Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 (edited) Have you tried going right back to basics with the retrieve? So instead of hoping that the retrieve will become instinctive, actually have a go at teaching it from nothing? So have a ball (or any other object you fancy - but not something that is normally chewed or tugged), and set yourself up for a clicker training session, put the object literally just at your feet and start by clicking for showing an interest at the object - looking at it, sniffing it, touching it, just being in the same space as it - if she doesn't show interest, touch it, or tap the ground near it to encourage her to come and investigate - and the nearer the mouth it goes (perhaps a close sniff) the bigger the reward - so act the silly goat, bring out the favourite toy or tugger or do food circuits or whatever it is you use for the big rewards. So really, to start with, you're forgetting you want a retrieve, you're teaching that you want "something" to happen when that toy is out. Eventually it will go in her mouth - and the further down the road you go with being more successful at getting more "mouth" interest, the less you will click the looks, sniffs, etc. Admittedly there will then come the fine line between aiming for more mouth touches and clicking those, and perhaps going through a phase of not getting them, but having to give a click for something else like a look or a sniff, so that your dog doesn't lose heart. Once there is a good chance that you can get it in her mouth more often than not, you could put it a short distance away (like a foot/30 cms, not half a mile!) and go through the same process. Having watched someone clicker train a Tibetan Terrier to retrieve - who was completely disinterested in temperament and inclination to retrieve anything (and even now has trouble seeing where the things gone he's supposed to be bringing back!) I have complete faith that with time, patience and persistence you will succeed with this. The only other thing is that you will have to do this without any other dogs helping. Left to their own devices, Tigger and Daisy do exactly what your dogs do - Tigger retrieves, Daisy runs along madly, goes round and round, but doesn't actually ever bring back the ball. So, I have had to train Daisy on her own, how to retrieve - and it is just beginning to happen. I will now retreat back to my observer status. Edited November 25, 2007 by Mrs B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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