safneo Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 Even walking at 6.00am around here there are loads of people doing exactly the same thing! Its a very built up area. And Purdie doesnt travel at well. Thats stresses her out big time. Purdies recall is not fantastic and its not worth the risk of her attacking another dog (she doesnt need teeth) or another dog attacking her and her not being able to fight back. The hard work that has been done would be lost very quickly. And Nat has spent a long time trying to improve her recall. I know because I have helped. Miss P is one independent stubborn girl! But gorgeous! I have walked Purdie and she is a totally different ball game to Neo. I've never known a dog that can manouvre themselves into the positions that she does to 'get control back' of the harness/headcollar that she wears. She is like a worm! Its very difficult to walk her and not the most enjoyable experience at times. Neo has his problems but I can easily manage him when he starts kicking off on lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobleronie Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 Safneo whilst I feel for you with your problems with your dog and I wish you luck this thread was started by Nat asking for advice for Purdie, hence why I asked for more information as to Purdies daily routine in the hope that people could come forward with advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
safneo Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 Safneo whilst I feel for you with your problems with your dog and I wish you luck this thread was started by Nat asking for advice for Purdie, hence why I asked for more information as to Purdies daily routine in the hope that people could come forward with advice I know, but I have experienced Purdies problems many times first hand. I know Purdie and I know Nathalie and how hard she has worked and the many methods she has tried over the last 3 years to try and improve Purdie's and her own life. Sorry if you thought I was trying to make this about our (mine and Neos) problems but I wasnt. Just trying to highlight some of the reasons for not taking our dogs out. I don't have a problem with Neo. I can handle him and he is nowhere near as much of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmckay Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 (edited) Ah right... cheers for explaining that both of you. Don't know if it's quite my bag, but I can see where AS is coming from. She's trying to get a patterned behaviour set before putting in distractions. Must be hard on you though Um, you know that training tricks doesn't necessarily have to be food rewarding don't you? I like training with a game at the end, and because I do flyball, I use a ball as a reward. They only get the game if they have done the thing I've asked (standing on hind legs is one we're doing atm). Edited November 6, 2006 by dlmckay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natpants Posted November 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 I think a point that was raised before too on DP is that I used to get very stressed, whereas Andrea has the right attitude and is very positive and relaxed, I am more nervy. I am an awful lot more relaxed than I used to be, but I admit, worrying about the abuse (one bloke threatened me and said he'd follow me home for example) from the people is as much a part of the worries as the dogs - if not more so! What I don't want to do is take a decision I'm not comfortable with, and be miserable, as I was before. Therefore I am worried about allowing Purdie off-lead. We looked into tennis courts and equestrian places before to try to find somewhere to allow her off-lead. The good news is that Andrea and I can now allow our aggressive dogs to go off exploring together if we find such a place! And this is all assuming Ange thinks it's okay to let her be walked with a lead. It does definitely change the dynamic of the dog to dog relationship and I don't want Purdie to suffer a setback due to my impatience... Ah right... cheers for explaining that both of you. Don't know if it's quite my bag, but I can see where AS is coming from. She's trying to get a patterned behaviour set before putting in distractions. Must be hard on you though Um, you know that training tricks doesn't necessarily have to be food rewarding don't you? I like training with a game at the end, and because I do flyball, I use a ball as a reward. They only get the game if they have done the thing I've asked (standing on hind legs is one we're doing atm). Purdie looks at me, says "bored now" or "where's the food" to that Ball games, well, they're fun as long as she's allowed to EAT the ball she takes it and chews it or leaves it. She has the attention span of a goldfish. Although that might be being unfair to the goldfish. She's what Freud might call, orally fixated, is my dog Any tips on making her more toy orientated would be excellent if you have some? That's kind of what I meant about the food fiaxation, I feel like it's making it worse, and I'm not sure it's healthy to encourage it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmckay Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 She's what Freud might call, orally fixated, is my dog Any tips on making her more toy orientated would be excellent if you have some? That's kind of what I meant about the food fiaxation, I feel like it's making it worse, and I'm not sure it's healthy to encourage it... OK, so toys are only exciting if the head of the household has it and it's not an ordinary mundane thing that always lying around the house. Tennis balls in my house are only for training. When the dogs see one, they're desperate to have it, because it's a high value item. Why is it high value? Because they have a quick game where it's thrown, they retrieve, it's bounced on the floor, they catch it, it goes back into my pocket and they're wondering where it went. Tui never used to retrieve. The ball being kept only for special occasions, has made her want and NEED this ball like never before. In flyball, if they want a game with me and the ball, they have to go over the obstacle course, get the ball and bring it back to me correctly BEFORE they can have the game. The trick is that the fun with the toy is the game with me - not just the toy itself. Some flydogs have great sendaways, but of course, they only want the ball, not the game with their handlers... Does that make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobleronie Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 Nat you havn't said what Purdies daily routine is. if you are sticking to a trainers routine then I don't quite understand why you are asking for advice believe me I am only trying to understand what advice you are asking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natpants Posted November 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 I can't stick to the twice monthly workshops, I don't have a spare £100 a month having had a lot of financial problems and a car that had an undiagnosed problem that the garage can't find but has me losing power on the motorway (I suspect it only occurs during long journeys) and Purdie would stress like mad being towed in my car if I broke down with me in the breakdown van for 2.5 hours from Somerset. It's not possible for me to go to regular workshops so it's making the best of a bad job, whether I should wait, or start walking her again. Purdie travels badly and my health is poor too, and I have found myself having prior engagementsby the time I find out about the workshops too. What people think to the off-lead theory, I don't know really. I just posted because for the first time in a year I felt I was floundering and the behaviourist isn't able to answer my questions as she's not here. Whether I would do more harm than good allowing P out now, whether I shoudl persist with more workshops, albeit sporadically. The routine, well, she has a routine of wees/poos/feed/morning chew followed by kong when I leave, evening meal at a set time too with training and games ad hoc, I rely on help from my housemate to help me with Purdie and we are both trying to change career with studying so it's not very structured :dunno: Structure seems to make no difference to Purdie other for her to wake up an hour earlier and cry and sing or and cry and "sing" for her supper when she knows something is due to happen (specifically, dinner). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobleronie Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 Nat at what time does Purdie go out for a walk is it before her feed or after Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natpants Posted November 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 Nat at what time does Purdie go out for a walk is it before her feed or after She doesn't... that's the point of the post, it's about the fact that Purdie isn't walked, and when she should be going out for walks again... hence the title... When she was walked, I would feed her some kibble as training, and towards the end she would get her food portion as rewards for watch me commands, with special treats for recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlmckay Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 OK, this is my take on what is occuring at your home… I would add that I haven't read anything about your situation except what you have put in this thread, so if I'm way off the mark, then I apologise… Purdie is a very intelligent, bright dog. Being a dalmation (?), she is also headstrong. She has a handler that is poorly and she takes advantage of this by pushing her luck, sometimes getting exactly what she wants. Because she can domineer her handler, she doesn't trust the handler to make "good decisions" on her behalf and as a result, feels the need to attack other dogs because she doesn't trust her handler to deal with that situation. She is currently left alone at home and is getting very bored. NatsPants has many stresses going on at home and at college/work and is finding the added stress of this situation with Purdie exhausting. Now, with that as how I see the situation, I would add my theory on what I think would be good for Purdie… this is only my opinion, and you should decide whether or not it would work for you and Purdie…. I have always felt that dogs are very similar to toddlers. Headstrong, fearless and exasperating at times. Because neither toddlers nor dogs speak english, you have to set rules, have consequences for rules broken and maintain those boundaries in a fair, firm and consistent manner. Set routines work very well because the dog can start to expect what is happening next and they don't have to think about it. Their handler is in charge of the routine and this helps to promote the handler in the dog's eyes, same as our toddler having faith that we will feed them on time and send them to a warm, clean bed at night. So, I would put Purdie into a routine that works for you - it fits around your other commitments that you already have - You obviously have a busy morning getting ready to go out, so I wouldn't use that time as training time - you're too stressed. However, when you get home, that's really when you should take just 15 minutes and use that as Purdie time. When the dinner is in the oven and you're just mooching about the house waiting for it to cook. I would have a 10 minute zoom about with her, either throwing something, or (as she's not particularly toy oriented atm), just push her around and play with her. My dogs love to shoulder barge me and dance about being a loon. This acts as a destresser from being alone all day and helps loose the excitement of you being at home now. Then have a command that you wish to teach her and work intensively for 15 minutes on getting it right. Heelwork would be superb because she needs to concentrate on you in order to do it effectively and she does sound as though she needs to learn to focus on you more. Then after 15 minutes, end on a high note, play with her again and then go to your dinner. Pop her in her crate or in her bed whilst you eat and then let her mooch about afterwards as she does normally, keeping in mind the general house rules of what's acceptable and not! If you tried this routine, I would like to think that some of her boredom would dissapate. However, routines are only effective if they are, well, routine! So pick a time that is going to be consistent and stick with it. Also realise that if you can't use the same time on say, a Wednesday, Purdie will soon figure out that Wednesdays aren't a day when she gets the workout and will accept that… I take my dogs out every week night except Thursday. For the half hour before I start getting ready to go out, the dogs are whining and agitating, but they don't make a sound on Thursdays… weird but true! Hopefully this will help! Sorry this is soooooo long! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoC Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 What a horrible dilemma you're in I've got a bit of empathy for you cos I've had similar decisions to make with Charlie, although the situation is different. I've got some info on getting dogs more into toys, Len had never played before I got him and now he's tennis ball mad, so it can be done, and I think Purdie would really enjoy playing toy games when she knows the rules. You could play fetch games with her in the grassy bit of your garden once she's learned to enjoy it and how to play it, and that would use some energy up. Especially if you keep long grassy bits so as well as running and fetching she has to do some sniffing and searching too. I assume the £8k field doesn't have planning permission to build on, so it might be for sale for a while, could be worth contacting the owner and finding out if you could rent it one afternoon a week while they're waiting for a buyer. I doubt it will cost much. Or there's always secure tennis courts, but admittedly they are harder to find and get to without passing other dogs. I don't think you need to avoid any stress at all, because you're never going to have a dog who never gets stressed, the important bit is reducing the stress to a manageable level (which is what you're doing) and also teaching her to cope with it. Perhaps you could focus on teaching her to get more hooked on toys, that would give you something to concentrate on and remove her boredom at the moment, while you think about long term. What you could do, is if she is focused on toys, get a fabric muzzle that's slightly too big, so she can't get her mouth wide open to bite chunks out of dogs but can open her mouth a bit, you can take her around where dogs are but not interacting (perhaps find an outdoor agility class? you could watch from a distance and work on keeping her focus on you, and then depending on the trainer and the venue they have you could have a one to one session when everyone's gone, or let her run around in the field) I assume at the groups when she sees dogs she always then interacts, so seeing ones she WONT get to talk to is a different ball game and she does need to get used to that too. I suppose the ideal would be to find somewhere you could rent to let her off. Maybe if you know of a field you could check on the land registry to see who owns it? Or try local training classes to see what venues they use, especially outdoor classes. The problem I have with taking C out on a lead and muzzled is partly that you have no way of rewarding or distracting without the dogs mouth, and also you'll always get dogs running up, winding your dog up and then running off if they react. Perfect aggression training! It's fine if you just want to manage your dogs behaviour, as some with aggressive dogs do, but for those of us who are working hard to resolve the problem it's a disaster. Just taking a dog around other dogs and using a muzzle to prevent physical damage is actually going to cause more mental damage, and I can totally understand why you want to avoid that. I dont' know if you've got my email address, I've lost yours (was on laptop which is broked) but if you want that info on getting dogs hooked on toys, let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendbert Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 I've read through all of the posts and for what its worth, here's my thoughts. I'm afraid some of my thoughts are not going to be popular, but its just how I see it and not in any way personal criticism Are you really and truly the right home for Puride? Blunt as it sounds, I just can't see how she can be completely happy not having any walks at all. I am not familiar with Angela Stockdales methods but it honestly seems to me that if after 15 months you still cannot take her out, its is not working. As much as I loved Moog and wanted him to stay here, when I realised just how unhappy he was being left I had to make a decision which was based purely on his happiness. He was the oldie Yellow that I'd always wanted but when I had tried everything I could think of I had to accept that he was too unhappy being left. He's now in a family home where there is someone there all the time and he is very happy and very loved. I'm still not really understanding why you can't take Purdie out, on a lead/harness and muzzled. I know what its like to have an agressive dog which is why Bumpy is muzzled on every walk. He has bitten me and I will not risk him biting another person or their dog. He doesn't like it but thats tough and it does mean that he can have the exercise and stimulation that he needs. In some ways it is harder with Bumpy as I can't get his visual attention on me. There is that huge playing field down the road from you, surely there must be times when its quieter there? Bumpy will be 11 next month but even as an 'oldie' I can't imagine how he would cope with no walks at all. From what I know, Dalmations were bred as dogs to run alongside carriages, which makes me think that Purdie must need the physical exercise and not just mental stimulation. Thinking about all the training you've been doing, is it possible that walking Purdie would be easier now that she's switched on to the training and rewards? I can get small treats through the edges of Bumpy's Baskerville muzzle so you could still give Purdie her treats and keep her attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natpants Posted November 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 OK, this is my take on what is occuring at your home… I would add that I haven't read anything about your situation except what you have put in this thread, so if I'm way off the mark, then I apologise… Purdie is a very intelligent, bright dog. Being a dalmation (?), she is also headstrong. She has a handler that is poorly and she takes advantage of this by pushing her luck, sometimes getting exactly what she wants. Because she can domineer her handler, she doesn't trust the handler to make "good decisions" on her behalf and as a result, feels the need to attack other dogs because she doesn't trust her handler to deal with that situation. She is currently left alone at home and is getting very bored. NatsPants has many stresses going on at home and at college/work and is finding the added stress of this situation with Purdie exhausting. Thanks That certainly used to be true, although my health doesn't factor into it as I've lived with the pronblem for 6 or 7 years, so I manage it, but I do try not to overdo it as it makes me worse. Purdie certainly rang rings around me when I first had her - she was entirely unsuitable for a first dog - I'd never even had a family dog before. Although obviously I wouldn't swap her for the world and she's taught me a lot, and I'm proud of how far we've come Things are very different now, I am very used to coping with her and am relaxed now, apart from the idea of off-lead walks and the threatening encounters we used to have I admit makes me nervous about doing it again. She is currently left at home, I am fortunate to have a housemate who is around a lot, finishes work early and only works term-time only, and to have a couple of friends who help out too. When I first rehomed Purdie I lived with a mature student and I worked near home so could come home at lunchtime, unfortunately my circumstances have changed so I'm having to manage with a less than ideal situation. I do try hard to ensure Purdie is stimulated and she always sleeps during the day whether we are here or not, but of course that means that when we are around she requires a lot of attention. Of course I have other commitments but I wanted to retrain to a career that would suit having a dog which is why I intend to be self-employed when I can and work from home. As for the toys, I would love help on this, thanks! Purdie doesn't have free access to toys, she has a couple she likes to "gum" on that I leave lying around as well as nylabones, the rest are in a toybox and I control that. She also has a special toy, that has a name. We get her excited by saying its name (where's tuggy?) and we play with it. I drag it along the ground and we play tug with it and I decide when it goes back in the box. Its original use was to teach a running/chase recall (it hasn[t quite worked like that). The problem with any toy is that she gets bored very very quickly, I'm not sure how to make it any more exciting? Purdie's attention span is very limited and I think this is one of the main problems, making me interesting enough, I've done the hiding behind trees type things til I'm blue in the face but she loses focus very quickly. Often I think she doesn't intend to lose sight of me but forgets to focus on where I am when she finds something interesting (like a chip hidden in long grass, for example). Jo I would love your advice sheet, thanks (it's on my msn messenger addy!!) I dislike fabric muzzles as they don't allow her to pant and only use a basket one. I have tried a fabric one before and needless to say, she hated it. She also hated the Ttouch calming bands on her nose and also some bizarre calming thing that looked like a gimp mask, she just hates anything on her face. Lynne and I worked on this in Ttouch but I'm sorry to say Ttouch really doesn't seem to do an awful lot for Purdie and we did persist for maybe 9 or 10 months. Thanks for your help everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natpants Posted November 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Hi Wend. No, I don't think Purdie was the right home for me, even though my circumstances were different then. I had no experience of dogs although I had tried to do my homework, I clearly was very inexperienced. However, selfishly - I could not part from her, and she and I are very bonded. She has always been very much my dog, despite living with one person for a year as well as me, and with my current housemate for 18 months, she is very much my dog. She adores me, and I her. She's my world, and much as Purdie loves everyone, I am hers. Rescues talk about "forever homes" a lot. I am not giving up and never will. That was 2.5/3 years ago and I have learned a lot about Purdie and dogs in general. Unselfishly - how many people do you think would be willing to take Purdie on, even as far improved as she is now? Angela Stockdale has rehomed 300 odd dogs and rehabiliated God knows how many more, and has described her as being one of the worst she's ever met. She even swore when she met her and G says she had never heard her do that with another client. I have asked her opinion and she doesn't think I should or even could rehome her. She says that she is lucky to have met me, that she could well have ended up dead by now, that she is gobsmacked that I was walking her at all as she is so difficult to control. She pulls into every harness we have tried, and manages to escape from TTouch balancing lines (all of them! ) for example. So walking her on a harness isn't fun, but we do do it. We've worked hard on her "stop" and "this way" commands for this reason. Exercising her more makes her more fit, and able to take more exercise but it doesn't make her any less energetic. She can run for 5 hours but it doesn't mean she is tired mentally. Purdie is calmer now than she ever was. Yes it's clear that lately she is bored, so I am making efforts to make amends for that. I said before I was changing career so that I could spend more time with my dog. I posted on DP a couple of years ago asking about what sort of jobs would be good for having a dog from the point of view of being able to work from home. One took my interest and that's what I've been doing since. It's a shame that I was made redundant but I don't have control over that. If I rehomed Purdie the next home may also encounter unforeseen problems - couples break up, people get ill or pass away, people lose their homes. Life isn't predictable or perfect but I am doing the best I can. No my situation isn't ideal. Yes I will continue to manage it. Meant to add about the treats/walking idea. We did that for a long time before seeing Angela. I could still do that. I taught her a great "watch me" command. But even if she focuses on me, she still has a problem with other dogs, distracting her doesn't change that, and a lot of behaviourists would argue actually makes it worse. I wanted my dog to have as great a life as possible. She will never be perfect and I accept that, but I wanted her to be able to run around and play with other dogs, at least some of the time. I've spent a great deal of time and money trying to enable that to happen. Edited November 7, 2006 by Natpants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts