Joc, Lindsay, Bev In B, Tracey Etc

[Natpants]

I've seen a post on another forum, by a girl posting on behalf of her sister. She has a GSD with aggression issues and recall problems, and someone has advised not feeding the dog at all for a day, taking food out on walks, and feeding the dog when she comes back to the owner, and not feeding at all until the dog gets this idea. We're talking about a nervous, abused GSD and the advice was effectively to starve the dog until she cottons on was how I read it. The dog has bitten the postman and I've advised muzzling and long-line and seeing a behaviourist but I'd like to be able to offer her some more concrete help so that she doesn't take the only other advice offered which was literally starving the dog until she learns to recall...

[Ingrid]

To be honest I wouldn't get involved in any advice on aggression without first meeting the dog, it's so easy to misread the sign and label a dog something it isn't.

 

Just reiterate your advice to get help from a behaviourist.

[Natpants]

No, I meant the recall work...

[Ingrid]

I take these aggression problems are only round her home ?

 

If not then she shouldn't be letting the dog off on walks.

 

Is there not a good training class in the area she can join?

[Natpants]

I take these aggression problems are only round her home ?

 

If not then she shouldn't be letting the dog off on walks.

 

Is there not a good training class in the area she can join?

No, the dog is aggressive, I've told her she shouldn't let her off at all and should only be out muzzled, but was thinking long line work on recall, to help build a relationship and also as the dog pulls on the lead too. To be honest, I'm probably wasting my breath but I don't want her to take this other guy's advice about starving the dog so wanted to be able to offer a positive alternative, I guess I could have advised that myself but wanted to speak to Jo or someone first about it. The dog has a lot of training as well as behavioural issues though, I've advised a behaviourist but I'm not sure she will be able to afford one. Training classes are bound to be out as the dog barks at other dogs, and has people aggression issues. Just hope she looks into a behaviourist. The dog sounds fearful, poor thing

[Ingrid]

I know some classes in his area do offer one to one training for problem dogs so perhaps that's worth looking into.

 

Does she have a garden where she could work exclusively with the dog without distractions ?

 

I think what the person is talking about is nothing in life is free ( http://www.pets.ca/articles/article-dog_nilf.htm ) training, where a dog has to work for everything it gets literally even it's daily food, quite whether this would work with an aggressive problem I'm not convinced.

 

It's really not easy to advise on this sort of problem over the net, you have done right in suggesting a muzzle and not lose in public, unfortunately people don't always listen

[Natpants]

I'm reluctant to advise anything behavioural like NILIF too. There are loads of training issues but I think these are the least of her concerns. Have advised her to look into APDT behaviourist and asked her to PM me if she wants forum addresses, guess there's not much else to be done... Fair play to her for not just plonking the dog in rescue though, as many would, apparently she inherited the dog from the partner she split up with.

[Natpants]

Ok really, I need Jo or Lindsay or someone here, this guy is now advising the girl not to use a long line as it could be tangled round the dog's leg and cause it to have a metal plate put in (like happened to his) and not to muzzle it as the dog is aggressive, but walk the dog early or late instead, FFS, what if a child or another dog comes up to it or the owner drops the lead as she cannot handle the dog pulling!

[GSDFan]

Personally I wouldn't advocate use of a long line, they can cause quite severe injuries either to the legs or neck, it is also quite easy for the dog to pull it's handler over if it has a long line on. The combination of an aggressive dog and what sounds like a fairly clueless owner isn't a good one IMO where a long line is concerned. She would be better just keeping it on a normal length lead and NOT letting the dog off.

 

I don't offer online advice at all if the dog has aggression problems as the wrong advice can make things far worse. The first thing that needs to be ascertained is what sort of aggression the dog has and I don't believe that can be done without seeing the dog. So, I think you are giving sensible advice, in that you aren't giving much except see a trainer.

 

The girl needs to get her dog to a good trainer, training club or behaviourist. Some training clubs will take noisy/aggressive dogs.

 

Any idea where in the country the girl and her dog are ?

 

btw - if it is a nervous aggressive dog then I wouldn't muzzle, my personal experience is that can make the aggression worse.

 

Edited to add. I wouldn't use NILIF with a nervous aggressive dog.

Edited September 24, 2006 by GSDFan

[K9Fran]

Starving the dog won't help either - it could gooff looking for it's own brekkie!....... She needs to work with the recall at home, maybe even think about giving the dog his exercise at home, rather than taking him out to places he feels vulnerable........

[Natpants]

CROSSPOSTED WITH PERMISSION-

 

"My sister has a gorgeous German Shepherd, which she "inherited" when she kicked out her ex. Unfortunately, she's what you might call "a bit of a handful," so I wondered if any wise dog owners could assist!

 

She (the dog - or, correctly, bitch, I suppose) is probably 3 or 4 years old - was certainly at the end of puppyhood when sis got her, a couple of years ago - and was treated pretty badly by her previous owner. She was neglected quite badly, not exercised properly and almost certainly beaten. She can be very affectionate and attentive, but has several behavioural problems:

 

~she barks like mad at strangers, human or canine, and has on occasion been aggressive (a bit of a cliche, I know, but she bit the postman recently!)

~hates being handled if she isn't in control (to the point of having to be sedated for even fairly simple vetinary treatment), she either bites (sis currently has a lovle set of toothmarks on her bicep from her last attempt at claw-trimming!) or she "cries," which sis finds really upsetting.

~pulls on the lead and runs away if let off it (and won't come to a call)

 

Is there any hope of training a dog of this age to behave better? She has responded to clicker training, treats, etc, but only in the house, the bad behaviour comes straight back as soon as they go outdoors. {Just thought, could she have hearing problems? Maybe she can't hear the clicker/ commands as well outdoors with more background noise??}

 

Apologies for the long post, sis is getting ever more worried & really needs some help."

 

I really don't think walking this dog without a muzzle is an option, too much of a risk, and we all know not everyone is as conscienscious as people on here about allowing kids and dogs to go up to an on-lead dog. Far better the dog is kept in until a behaviourist can visit - except she (the sister who owns the dog) is on a limited budget and isn't sure if she can afford a behaviourist They are in Easingwold, North Yorkshire.

 

I really don't know what to suggest. Someone else made the comment about the long line, I suppose that hadn't occurred to me that you do have to be shown a correct technique and a stop command.

Edited September 24, 2006 by Natpants

[JoC]

Sounds like you've done the right thing

 

The only other thing I would say is that if they don't keep people safe (why the hell did the dog get the chance to bite the postman?? A hell of a lot of dogs would given the chance!) at the very least the dog needs to be kept on a lead if not muzzled as well. Other people are out and about during unsocialbe hours, including drunk people who are very scary to dogs and even ore likely to get bitten, or delivery people, who are the same.

 

A behaviourist is the only way to go here. A harness or halti would help her have control, but no way should the dog be off lead. It's for it's own safety, dogs who bite get killed. Simple as that.

[Natpants]

See maybe I'm a scaredy-pants, but owning an aggressive dog in Birmingham has taught me that there are more idiots than you realise, and you cannot factor in enough other people's stupidity. It wouldn't matter that they tell someone to keep their distance if someone comes too close to the dog, and she's not muzzled and bites, then the dog's in trouble, not the eejit who didn't heed the warning - I just would never risk it. Ok it's just barking and biting the vet or the people clipping her nails, a lot of dogs wouldn't like those things but she has bitten on more than one occasion and I just wouldn't risk it. Or am I being OTT? Impossible to say on a forum I suppose, which is why i would err on the side of caution and say muzzle at all times or the dog doesn't go out, the dog needs a behaviourist as a first port of call. I hope she can afford one. Does anyone have any personal recommendations for a behaviourist in that area?

 

I am SO going to study to be a behaviourist when I've owned lots more dogs in about 20 years time and have the time, this sort of thing frustrates me enormously as I'm so chuffing useless

[K9Fran]

I'm going to say this dog might actually be better off with an experienced owner. If she's nervous (and it sounds like she may be) then an inexperienced owner simply won't have the confidence in handling such a dog and to recognise the warning signs to keep the dog out of trouble and teach it appropriatly......

[GSDFan]

I'm going to say this dog might actually be better off with an experienced owner. If she's nervous (and it sounds like she may be) then an inexperienced owner simply won't have the confidence in handling such a dog and to recognise the warning signs to keep the dog out of trouble and teach it appropriatly......

 

 

I agree, BUT, it's hard enough to find rescue places and good owners for trouble free GSD's, never mind for ones which have problems. The chances of finding a place for this bitch are slim really.

 

Because she has aggression issues and is probably nervous the owner really shouldn't try and re-home the dog herself.