scotslass

I am having gates put up at the front of our house. I have just looked out and the joiner is displaying a horrid builder's bum. Well, it's his own, I assume. If it were someone else's surely he'd have picked a nicer one? And it's purple; used to be my favourite colour...

Good wishes for Trev and you today, Melp.

Oh, louisebt, don't cry. Don't let him do this to you. You are doing so well. Try to ignore him - he's the one with the problem, not you. You have been very strong - keep going a bit longer. It will get better - I know it's hard but try to ignore him. Liz.

Thanks Henmo Oh, and thanks for the tip, Zico's Mum Liz.

Henmo, you attributed a quote to me which I did not make. I realise that it was a mistake, but wanted it pointed out since this thread is getting heated - although, for the life of me, can't see why. Liz.

I disagree. I can't think of anything MORE important than the welfare and behaviour of our future adult population. Liz.

Rachael, are you appalled by my views? In that case, I have not made myself clear. I'm one of the ones who enjoys kids' company - my plea is for them to be given a break and not expected to endure restaurants before they're ready to enjoy them. If they are having a good time, they will behave better too, which benefits those who aren't as fond of kids as I am.

Am I being really dense here? Why is eating OUT the only way you can teach your child manners? I understand that at home, he can be playing till the moment he sits down, so he doesn't get bored - that's as it should be - so why does he have to learn at 2 years old that he has to wait for food in a restaurant? In a year or two, it won't be a problem for him to wait. As I said earlier, generations of people didn't eat out when they were toddlers and they are well socialised now. What am I missing? I hate the words "they have to learn" - it can cover all sorts of things we think kids should learn, but we have to consider whether it's for their good, or our convenience. My eldest went briefly to a playgroup where the leader thought that the children "had to learn" to be left alone, so mothers weren't allowed in. There's a lot of tosh spouted about what effect "over-dependence", for example, will have. Mine didn't go to playgroup or nursery - not because they weren't available, but because it isn't someone else's job to raise my kids. And no - despite all the dire warnings ("they'll never cope when they go to school", etc) - mine thrived. They are strong independent adults who certainly are not clones of me - nor would I want them to be. It's the same with eating out, surely - when it is a pleasure for them, they'll manage it. I'm sorry if that sounds abrupt...I am coming across as a humourless old bat, and I'm not really.

I'm not suggesting you don't take him out - I am saying why does he have to EAT out? He is still a baby - if he is learning how to eat well at home, then why would he need to learn how to eat out later on when he's older? It's the same thing. Eating out is a recent phenomenon - how do you think previous generations managed? Are all the over-40s you know throwing their food around and shouting because they weren't taken to Wacky Warehouse when they were young? (well, maybe some are... )

mmmmmmmmmm ok i feel a bit like Mel here - after reading all this - what would some of you think if you ate where theres was a load of Down Syndrome people there - i just dont think you could cope My little boy is 2 he runs around he screams he has tantrums he throws stuff BECAUSE he is 2 and to the people who think they were perfect 2 year old believe me you wernt because 2 years olds test the boundries its up to adults where they set the boundries my son gets very fustrated in restraunts - hes hungry and he wants his food and hes getting board waiting for it - we go to the whacky warehouse type places because he loves to play there but as for eating there its quite hard - he doesnt understand why he has been draged away from all the fun I have taken him to allsorts of places - mega posh restraunts, McDonalds and the local chineese buffet place (which is his personal favorite) and so long as i set the boundries and keep to them we dont have a problem I have had some tuts and sighs when i have been really struggling with spud and sometimes it is a struggle with a child who just doesnt want to do something - but to be honest i dont really care if thats your attitude to children then fine Sorry - still can't do quotes properly - but Waggi, can I just ask - seriously - why you'd want to take your toddler to eat out when he clearly doesn't enjoy it? I can't imagine that you enjoy it much either when he is so fed up. I would never expect a two-year old to want to eat out - what's the point? You're right, it is a struggle managing a kid who doesn't want to do something - all I am suggesting is that eating out isn't something you need to do battle over. Why not wait till he's old enough for it to be a treat?

I am not sure what people mean when they say they don't like children. What? All children? When do they stop being children and start being humans, then? My gripe has never been with children. It would be just as odd for me to say "I love all children" - obviously, I like some more than other - but, just as most people on here would say there are no bad dogs, just bad owners, I firmly believe that there are no bad children, just bad parents. If the puppy is a blank canvas, why isn't the child? There's nothing better than seeing a loved child out with his/her parents, being included in their activities because they love spending with him/her. What I think some of us object to is the parents who sit quite unconcerned while their children run riot because they can't be a***d to spend time with them, or set them an example. As Melp says, many parents don't have manners themselves (and I don't mean knowing which knife to use; I mean being considerate of others), so the poor kids haven't much hope of learning from them. I doubt they'll be ignoring their loud-mouthed parents' example and instead copying old Mr and Mrs Twee at the next table. I do feel sympathy for the harassed parent who is trying to hush her baby/calm her toddler - that's not the issue. It's the attitude already described - the "I'll bloody well do what I like and you lot can lump it" which leads to problems.

I had four children, and with one salary and living in the sticks, we didn't eat out much. However, we ate every meal together at the table and they grew up knowing how to behave. They all eat out now, of course, and as far as I know, none of them has ever been ejected from a restaurant for making a racket. I suspect the problem is that many families do not sit round their own table; the only time they do is in restaurants, hence the ensuing mayhem...and no, I don't see why I should have my meal ruined by someone else's bad manners.

http://www.craigwellhotel.co.uk/index.html We've just spent a couple of nights here - great breakfast - lots of choice (veggie options), free range eggs, Fair Trade products and eco-friendly cleaning products. Fluffy white towels/hair dryer/shampoo etc. Immaculate. Owners very welcoming. And...£25 per night each for an en-suite room with sea views. (Admittedly, we didn't see it this weekend, what with the mist...but we believe it was there ) Morecambe is a bit run-down, but we walked miles along the prom and visited the Lake District (easy journey) too. Bonnie is exhausted.