Annual Vaccinations/rimadyl&metacam

[dog crazy]

Hi everyone, I would be interested to know how many of you are aware of the dangers to your pets resulting from what I believe now also, of annual vaxs, painkillers Rimadyl and Metacam. As some of you may know my partner and I have fostered several dogs for the OC, and also greyhounds from other rescues, and the first thing we do is get them vet checked, and we see the usual, maybe ear / eyes need treating,general stiffness, fatty lumps etc. but no record of vaccination!!! apart from these the dog is fine, we get them vaccinated and treated with the known painkillers and within a few months I see problems. I did not want to believe this at first so I did some back tracking on all of the medical records of the dogs that I had adopted or perm. fostered and was shocked to find that all of them bar one, a GSD whom I had from 13wks of age and whos problems started from her first booster as a puppy,she lived for 12yrs with skin problems, allergies to the environment and others. she had suffered an anaphalactyc shock to the booster, but the vet still advised yearly boosters with an injection before each one of antihistamine. had I known then what I know now I would not have continued with them. I lost 3 to vax related illnesses in 2009, 2 with cancer, 1 his own immune system attacking his body, another in 2010 with cancer, all within 3- 5 months of vax their symptons appeared, pain killers administered which cause their own side effects, [with Rimadyl death in some dogs]. The vet prescribed Metacam for one of my old greyhounds I have at the moment, I was told that she had arthritis in her back legs,she had been on it before for a short time, she was panting a lot,obviously she was still in pain and it was repeated on maximum dose and a check up every few months, I mentioned my concerns but the vet would not budge, my other hound was diagnosed with osteoarthritis in her left hip, she also appeares to have neurological issues, these are permanent foster dogs so any medical costs would normaly be met by the rescue, so it can become a difficult situation to get alternative treatment with every rescue struggling at the moment. Last year I did a day course on canine massage therapy, one of the dogs there a GSD was having regular treatment, he was previously unable to use his back legs and on painkillers, he was now able to walk/run and on low dose painkillers. So at my own expense I took both my hounds for therapy just over a week ago, [with consent from the rescues and medical information from the vet on the consent form]. Results; both dogs have only a little arthritis,[ 1 has arthritis in her tail,] locked neck muscles, various scar tissue down shoulders and spinal area, these are ex-racing dogs so would expect these kind of problems, the so called osteoarthritis in left hip is actually a severe groin injury she must have received during her racing career and stretches down her left leg, I was invited to feel this injury myself, not surprising she refused to run.My dog on[ Metacam] after one session of massage therapy is now walking much better,I've reduced her meds right down she is no longer panting in pain. They are both going back in a months time for another session, the dog with the neurological problems should never have had her booster as the symptoms have got worse, apparently it can cause encephalitis and epilepsy, I will need to keep a close eye on her for the next 3 months at least. If we know our dogs have been vaxd perhaps we should not submit them to uneccesary treatment.Approx, 70% I am told of vet practices income is from annual boosters.

Please be aware, we put our trust in our vets to do the best for our dogs and other pets.what do the oc members think , do you still advise vaxs for the dogs coming in to our care, when this is done as puppies and then one booster at 6mths to a year this, through scientific tests has shown it gives immunity for many years. CANINE HEALTH CONCERN website will answer many questions against vaccination and the use of NSAIDS. Well worth a look. Tina

[Ian]

I found your post a little confusing to be honest.

 

There is some risk of side effects from long term use of nsaids such as Rimadyl & Metacam. Obviously you need to balance that with the dogs condition & need for medication should more natural alternatives fail to help. (I would agree that some vets do immediately just reach for Metcam or similar without suggesting alternatives such as hydrotherapy, accupunture, myotherapy etc, though I don't necessarily believe this is merely financially motivated)

 

There is some argument that vaccinations could be done less frequently (eg every 3 years) rather than annually but "many years?" (What profit margins vets make on vaccinations I am unsure, do you know?)

 

There is also an argument that dogs with conditions such as cdrm may not be helped by vaccination but I'm not sure how, why or on what evidence you concluded that the cancers etc was a direct result of the vaccination or (If I read your post correctly) that no dogs should be vaccinated annually.

 

 

 

Do you believe that older dogs would be at more risk than younger dogs (or vice versa)?

[dog crazy]

I found your post a little confusing to be honest.

 

There is some risk of side effects from long term use of nsaids such as Rimadyl & Metacam. Obviously you need to balance that with the dogs condition & need for medication should more natural alternatives fail to help. (I would agree that some vets do immediately just reach for Metcam or similar without suggesting alternatives such as hydrotherapy, accupunture, myotherapy etc, though I don't necessarily believe this is merely financially motivated)

 

There is some argument that vaccinations could be done less frequently (eg every 3 years) rather than annually but "many years?" (What profit margins vets make on vaccinations I am unsure, do you know?)

 

There is also an argument that dogs with conditions such as cdrm may not be helped by vaccination but I'm not sure how, why or on what evidence you concluded that the cancers etc was a direct result of the vaccination or (If I read your post correctly) that no dogs should be vaccinated annually.

 

 

 

Do you believe that older dogs would be at more risk than younger dogs (or vice versa)?

Yes, from what I have read it appears that the old dogs have already built up their immune system and vaccinating them again puts an overload on their system. If you get a chance to read on the website I previously mentioned please do ,it will answer all your questions. I have spoken to a few people regarding this subject, only today a friend told me that recently she adopted a chug; chihuahax x pug puppy, it's first vax resulted in an epileptic fit, one of it's littermates died. I agree that puppies need to have their first vax and booster but that should be enough, maybe a test after the 3 years you mention to check for immunity would be a good idea before we subject them to unnecessary treatment, kennels will not take in dogs that have not been vaccinated, so to find space for any rescue dog, they have to be done, and some of those I spoke to do not vax their own dogs, but do you think we should vax the old dogs that come into our care straight from their own homes, It may be that some of these dogs were already vaccinated when we got them but the owner or whoever has the dog at the time are unable to find the certificate, going on the fact that there is no proof we get them done any way, surely if we can get them tested first for immunity it would be better for them in the long term, cheaper for the rescue also.I believe that choice should be made by their new owners and that they are made aware of the issues surrounding vaccination and it's side effects. I am against vaccination for old dogs, the medical checks I have done on the dogs in my care have convinced me of this, the permanent foster dogs I have at the moment will not be having any more boosters, and I have the agreement from their rescues.

[Anne Grose]

Hi Ian, I'll chip in a little here. Most of the core vaccines now have a duration of 3 years and are not licenced to be given annually. Only leptospirosis and kennel cough are licenced for annual administration - the others should not be given more frequently than every 3 years. The guidance provided to vets also states that if there is no specific threat of leptospirosis or kennel cough then they also do not need to be given annually.

 

There is a wealth of anecdotal evidence that if the puppy vaccines are given after 14 weeks of age that they probably last a lifetime. I am conducting my own experiment with my own two dogs as I do believe over vaccination is harmful. I have two dogs who were given puppy vaccines at 6 months old and they have been blood titre tested every two years since then and have shown full immunity to the core vaccines. One dog is 7.5 years old and the other is 6.5 years old. Unfortunately, no hard scientific evidence exists to support this as most research is sponsored by the drug companies and they are not going to pay to prove that their products do not need to be given. The only research into vaccine duration is the rabies research currently taking place which has so far proved that the rabies vaccine lasts at least 7 years. This research has been paid for by the general public and has so far managed to change the vaccination protocol from every year to every 3 years in the UK and US. Hopefully now that the 7 year proof has been published the protocol will change again.

 

The vaccine data sheets also state that only healthy dogs should be vaccinated as the challenge to the dogs immune system is considerable and any dog that is unwell will have a compromised immune system.

 

This subject is very emotive and there is no doubt that vets gain a large proportion of their income from administering vaccines on a yearly basis.

 

The whole Metacam/Rimadyl subject is another book in itself and having done extensive research into the reported side effects of these drugs, I know that these drugs are not something that should be handed out like sweeties.

[cycas]

Hi everyone, I would be interested to know how many of you are aware of the dangers to your pets resulting from what I believe now also, of annual vaxs, painkillers Rimadyl and Metacam. As some of you may know my partner and I have fostered several dogs for the OC, and also greyhounds from other rescues, and the first thing we do is get them vet checked, and we see the usual, maybe ear / eyes need treating,general stiffness, fatty lumps etc. but no record of vaccination!!! apart from these the dog is fine, we get them vaccinated and treated with the known painkillers and within a few months I see problems.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think that quite follows.

 

Oldies Club does not generally take in dogs that already have really serious health problems such as cancer. We talk to the owners and get as much detail as we can about the dog before he is offered a foster place, and in general, would advise someone with a dog that is seriously ill to keep him for as long as is kind and feasible and have him put to sleep from home with love, rather than put him through a stressful transport run and change of homes.

 

This is why you don't see the unvaccinated dogs that are already seriously ill coming in. People tend not to ask us to take terminally ill dogs, and if they do, we say no. But they are out there.

 

If we have a sponsor dog come in terminally ill, it's usually either a dog from a pound situation where any foster home offer is going to be an improvement on where they are now, or a dog where we were misinformed about the dog's condition (like Snook's 'owner' who lied to us and said Snook was healthy and neutered, when in fact the poor old guy was in pain and in the later stages of testicular cancer : I suspect Snook wasn't vaccinated : certainly not regularly!)

 

If you are dealing with elderly dogs, then they are probably going to get ill eventually as they get older, it's the sad truth. Not many people or dogs are lucky enough to die of heart attacks at a fine old age. So, you get an effect where you vaccinate, and then the dog gets older, and then gets ill, but I don't think you can say from that that the illness is caused by the vaccination. If we didn't vaccinate, we might lose dogs to infectious disease instead.

 

We do get vaccinated dogs come in that are in good condition, and we also get unvaccinated dogs that come in in poor condition, are given vet treatment, vaccinated, and go on to live for years happily in their new homes.

 

It's definitely worth being aware of the side-effects of medication and being prepared to question your vet and take an alternative approach if something doesn't seem to suit them. We have had situations where vets have recommended against vaccination or neutering as the dog is too frail, for example.

 

The Canine Health Concern website is vocal and persuasive. I'm really not convinced it's right though. I don't think the person who created it has a very good understanding of medical science. She's cited a lot of information, but I'm really not at all convinced that she has understood it.

[Mrs Mop]

Personally if I had a vet like that I wouldn't go back, I discussed the vaccinations with mine and found that they do give injections every year for those than need to be done yearly, the others are done as and when needed whether it is 2 or 3 years between. This is were good records are needed so you and your vet knows what your dog has had previously.

 

For arthritis I use Cortaflex with my vet's permission, she thinks it is one of the best remedies on the market for arthritis, I use it on myself and know how much better I am. My dogs only go onto painkillers when they need them, other things are tried first.

 

They are quick to take blood, xrays and MRI scans but I prefer them that way than the way many vets seem to work.

 

My vet listens to me, they explain everything in a language I can understand and we discuss all the options before I make the decision.

[gremlin22]

I know there are risks with vaccines and treatments, but in all honesty i'd rather take the small risk of a vaccine reaction or side effect than the much greater risk of my dog contracting parvo or similar when i could have done something to try prevent it. Parvo is very much still out there, in my area at least and it's been around the country quite a lot this year from what i've seen on other forums. Also i work in a kennels, and if i want to take my dog to work she has to be up to date with an annual vaccine. I would love to only vaccinate 3 yearly but would not be allowed to take her to work in an emergency if i did that.

I know in particular some pain releif treatment don't work for all dogs, particularly if they have kidney problems. and if i could find an alternative that worked for my animal i'd happily use it,same for any medication. I would go with whatever worked for my own dog, but i wouldn't automatically rule out painkillers if my dog was in pain, i would certainly try them short term to make my dog comfortable.

I would do the same for myself if i was in pain.

i can understand your reasoning tho,all i can do is put my trust in my vet,and make sure my dog is happy.