Training Advice Please

[Laura_E]

I have been taking Tess to training classes for the past four weeks with my friend and her dog Densil. I had hoped that she would be able to take the bronze good citizenship award, however, it is becoming increasingly obvious that she doesn't stand much chance of passing.

 

The main issue is getting her to stay in the same position for a minute. At the moment I'm lucky if I can get her to stay still for longer than five seconds. Even the trainers can't get her to stay put.

 

There are a few dogs in our class with aggression issues, including Densil, so they tend to get focused on much more than the other dogs. This is obviously understandable, but I don't really feel like I am learning anything.

 

Tess would have no problem in passing every other aspect of the award, her recall is fantastic and she walks really well on the lead with me, but not so much with other people. I think this is probably down to how clingy she is with me, and I also think this is the reason that she won't stay put when I walk away.

 

The other issue is her jumping up. If you tell her to sit she will jump up if she doesn't get the treat straight away. She also jumps up whenever I have to stand still with her. The trainer thinks that she has been taught to jump for treats in the past, so will need to be trained out of it (which is why I am there!).

 

Does anyone know any techniques that I could try? Any advice or suggestions would be gratefully received.

[gremlin22]

not been funny and nothing against your mates dog but dogs with aggression issues shouldn't be in the bronze award class i wouldn't have thought. They certainly can't pass if they display any of that, i know cos there's no way my dog could pass purley on that element and she's not that bad with dogs anymore. It's a bit unfair of the trainer to have other dogs like that in the class it will be making your dog more nervous and insecure if she is worried by some of the other dogs. All you can do is practice the stay at home until she can do it and then build it up in the class gradually. I know it's a bit difficult but everyone in the class deserves the same attention.

not much help sorry

good luck tho

[gremlin22]

ps i'm not a trainer or owt so i might be talking rubbish.

 

with the jumping up tho maybe try turn away when she does it and ignore her, then as you turn back around ask her to sit and reward when she does.

might not be right tho.

[Laura_E]

To be honest, I know that Tess doesn't enjoy being there as she will sit there and shake when the other dogs are barking and growling, but I don't want to give up on it as we only have two weeks left.

 

I don't think the journey there helps as there have been a few squabbles between her and Densil on a couple of occasions. It mainly occurs when Densil objects to being told off by Tess for his lack of manners and then it is left down to me to keep them seperated as my friend is driving. Luckily, Tess tries to get as far away from Densil as possible when he acts like this, but he is a big strong boy and it is quite hard work to keep him under control in a moving vechile! By the time we arrive all four of us are quite stressed, which is obviously counter-productive to the training.

 

I have suggested travelling there seperately, but I don't drive and the last time I mentioned it to my friend, she got quite upset. She is a very sensitive soul and doesn't feel confident enough to go on her own, particularly as some of the other dog owners have made comments about Densil's behaviour, which had her in tears. Plus she is really trying her best and has over-come a lot of personal battles to get to this stage, so I want to support her- but it's not always easy!

 

Anyway, I have gone off on a tangent, again!

 

Sometimes when it comes to Tess I just wonder if it's a case of 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks'! She is stubborn to the bone and incredibly strong willed. I do ignore her when she jumps up and will turn my back on her, but she just walks round me and starts jumping up again- sometimes we end up going round in circles!

[K9Fran]

Have you tried 300 pecks? http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1057

 

IT's a very simple method for building duration into things like 'sit and stay' or walking on a loose lead.

 

Also - try changing the command - if sit means pop your bum on the floor and jump up for treat, teach her 'bum down' as if training sit again, but only ever reward her when her bum is on the ground.

[cycas]

I'm no expert, but I wonder if you might be trying to do too many things at once with this class?

 

You are going to support your friend and Densil, and to learn new things yourself, and to teach Tess 'stay' but it does rather sound as though some of those things might be incompatible with each other?

 

I think you are right that Tess is unlikely to learn well if she is wound up and feeling stressed. My Az is a nervous dog: his stay is pretty good, but I wouldn't expect him to do it after a stressful car journey with a dog that he didn't get on with, when he was shaking and nervous of his environment: he turns into velcro dog under those conditions and won't learn anything new.

 

Since you only have 2 classes left, is there any mileage in going to those without Tess, and focussing on your own learning and supporting your friend? Maybe you could 'shadow' the trainer and pick up tips that way that you could practice with Tess later?

[Fee]

I agree with Victoria, I'm afraid' it doesn't sound as though this class is the right environment for Tess to learn in, and more importantly it doesn't sound as though either of you are enjoying it much.

 

Tess sounds so like my Meg in a lot of ways, bright but stubborn Do you clicker train at the moment? If not I'd really recommend giving it a try, I suspect Tess would respond really well to it.

 

I don't know how much groundwork you've done in the class to get her to stay, but expecting a dog to stay put while you walk away in a threatening environment is asking an awful lot.

 

I'd be going back to baby steps, get her to sit (or down) while you hold the lead, take a step away sideways and back to her side immediately then reward. Build up gradually to waiting a few seconds before you step back, then try stepping in front of her, or behind her but keep close, then start dropping the lead and do the same thing. Until she's really solid letting you step away from her and waiting a short time until you step back you really don't stand a chance of being able to go any distance from her.

 

Work on that could also help with the jumping up problem. It's always easier to get a dog to do something than not do something, so if you have a good solid 'sit/wait' you can ask for that whenever she tries to jump up, and reward/praise like mad when she's doing it. She will eventually figure out that jumping up gets ignored, sitting nicely gets rewarded!

 

 

[Mrs Mop]

99.9% of aggression is fear, to take a fear aggressive dog into a place were there are lots of other dogs won’t help with his fear and when frightened they don’t learn. They also feel trapped as they are on a lead and can’t escape, this can make the fear worse. If I was put into a room full of daddy long legs and expected to learn I would only panic, wouldn’t be able to hear what was said to me. A dog aggressive dog needs this sorting first before going into training classes. Personally I think calling dogs dog aggressive when they are very frightened and trying to protect themselves is the wrong label.

 

What is Tess like with the stay when she isn’t in class? She could be more clingy to you because of the situation with the other dogs.

 

For the jumping up, she only gets the treat when all 4 feet or bum is on the ground, I would fold my arms and ignore her while she is jumping, once she stops, and she will do, then give her a treat. This will be easier if you were clicker training, instead of the treat in your hand ready to give her you could have the clicker, not having food in your hand will make it easier for Tess.

 

To be honest, I know that Tess doesn't enjoy being there as she will sit there and shake when the other dogs are barking and growling, but I don't want to give up on it as we only have two weeks left.

 

Personally I wouldn’t take any of my dogs into a situation were they were like this, each time this happens it will get worse. I would forget about the other two weeks. I know how I would feel if I was in or close to a group of teenage hooligans threatening each other, I would want to be away as fast as I could.

 

I don't think the journey there helps as there have been a few squabbles between her and Densil on a couple of occasions. It mainly occurs when Densil objects to being told off by Tess for his lack of manners and then it is left down to me to keep them seperated as my friend is driving.

I

 

I am having problems trying to word all this without seeming to attack you, that isn’t my intention but putting into words to avoid this can be difficult. Don’t leave it for Tess to tell Densil off, step in before she needs to do this so you protect Tess. Could Densil be crated or secured in the car so you don’t have to keep them separated?

 

I have suggested travelling there seperately, but I don't drive and the last time I mentioned it to my friend, she got quite upset. She is a very sensitive soul and doesn't feel confident enough to go on her own, particularly as some of the other dog owners have made comments about Densil's behaviour, which had her in tears. Plus she is really trying her best and has over-come a lot of personal battles to get to this stage, so I want to support her- but it's not always easy!

 

As Densil is dog aggressive which is usually based on fear, I suspect that going to these classes may not be doing him any good, could you train together were it is much quieter for your dogs? I am sure you can do this and help your friend. I may be misreading this but I get the impression that all 4 of you are not getting much out of the classes now. Other dog owners making comments enough to upset your friend like this isn’t going to help either.

 

Sometimes when it comes to Tess I just wonder if it's a case of 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks'! She is stubborn to the bone and incredibly strong willed.

 

Change how you think of this, dogs don’t do stubborn, they are trying to communicate with us but we are not understanding what they are saying, this leads to the dog trying harder and harder and appears to be stubborn and strong willed. I had this with Samantha, thought she was stubborn and strong willed but when I changed my thinking on this, we were able to communicate and understand each other much better.

 

Instead of turning round when she is jumping up, stand with your arms folded looking ahead and ignore her, this is much easier to say than do, she can’t keep the jumping up forever and as dogs only do what works, she will eventually stop jumping up because it is no longer working. Many dogs think you are joining in with the game when you keep turning round and think it is fun, seems Tess may be one of them.

 

99.9% of aggression is fear, to take a fear aggressive dog into a place were there are lots of other dogs won’t help with his fear and when frightened they don’t learn. They also feel trapped as they are on a lead and can’t escape, this can make the fear worse. If I was put into a room full of daddy long legs and expected to learn I would only panic, wouldn’t be able to hear what was said to me. A dog aggressive dog needs this sorting first before going into training classes. Personally I think calling dogs dog aggressive when they are very frightened and trying to protect themselves is the wrong label.

 

What is Tess like with the stay when she isn’t in class? She could be more clingy to you because of the situation with the other dogs.

 

For the jumping up, she only gets the treat when all 4 feet or bum is on the ground, I would fold my arms and ignore her while she is jumping, once she stops, and she will do, then give her a treat. This will be easier if you were clicker training, instead of the treat in your hand ready to give her you could have the clicker, not having food in your hand will make it easier for Tess.

 

To be honest, I know that Tess doesn't enjoy being there as she will sit there and shake when the other dogs are barking and growling, but I don't want to give up on it as we only have two weeks left.

 

Personally I wouldn’t take any of my dogs into a situation were they were like this, each time this happens it will get worse. I would forget about the other two weeks. I know how I would feel if I was in or close to a group of teenage hooligans threatening each other, I would want to be away as fast as I could.

 

I don't think the journey there helps as there have been a few squabbles between her and Densil on a couple of occasions. It mainly occurs when Densil objects to being told off by Tess for his lack of manners and then it is left down to me to keep them seperated as my friend is driving.

I

 

I am having problems trying to word all this without seeming to attack you, that isn’t my intention but putting into words to avoid this can be difficult. Don’t leave it for Tess to tell Densil off, step in before she needs to do this so you protect Tess. Could Densil be crated or secured in the car so you don’t have to keep them separated?

 

I have suggested travelling there seperately, but I don't drive and the last time I mentioned it to my friend, she got quite upset. She is a very sensitive soul and doesn't feel confident enough to go on her own, particularly as some of the other dog owners have made comments about Densil's behaviour, which had her in tears. Plus she is really trying her best and has over-come a lot of personal battles to get to this stage, so I want to support her- but it's not always easy!

 

As Densil is dog aggressive which is usually based on fear, I suspect that going to these classes may not be doing him any good, could you train together were it is much quieter for your dogs? I am sure you can do this and help your friend. I may be misreading this but I get the impression that all 4 of you are not getting much out of the classes now. Other dog owners making comments enough to upset your friend like this isn’t going to help either.

 

Sometimes when it comes to Tess I just wonder if it's a case of 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks'! She is stubborn to the bone and incredibly strong willed.

 

Change how you think of this, dogs don’t do stubborn, they are trying to communicate with us but we are not understanding what they are saying, this leads to the dog trying harder and harder and appears to be stubborn and strong willed. I had this with Samantha, thought she was stubborn and strong willed but when I changed my thinking on this, we were able to communicate and understand each other much better.

 

Instead of turning round when she is jumping up, stand with your arms folded looking ahead and ignore her, this is much easier to say than do, she can’t keep the jumping up forever and as dogs only do what works, she will eventually stop jumping up because it is no longer working. Many dogs think you are joining in with the game when you keep turning round and think it is fun, seems Tess may be one of them.

[Laura_E]

I haven't tried clicker training, I've heard of it but don't know anything about it. I will definitely look into it though. I think having treats in my hand does encourage Tess to jump up, but when I ignore her she just goes off to nick the treats from the other dogs! She is quite resourceful

 

I have tried training her in the house, but she just does the same thing. I am trying to teach her down as I know it would be an easier position for her to maintain, but she's not really getting it. But I will definitely try what Fee suggested.

 

I haven't made myself sound very good in the last two posts, so I think I should make it clear that I would never allow another dog to attack or hurt Tess. When I say that her and Densil have had 'squabbles' I mean barking, growling and lunging. As a general rule Densil is fine with Tess and initially just wants to play, but as he has no manners he goes in guns blazing and she quite rightly takes offence and tells him off, and he is turn takes offence at being told off. I don't think that he would hurt her, but at the same time I'm not willing to take the risk. We did try crating him on one trip but he managed to chew through it within about 10 seconds!

 

My friend has asked the trainer if Densil would be better getting one to one training, but she said no as the main issue is socialising him with other dogs. There is an English Bull Terrier in the class who is very vocal and he took an instant disliking to Densil, along with an un-neutered terrier cross, so those are the ones that he has the main issues with. Aside from those two there is a Rough Collie (male) that he has one minor squabble with, a GSD (male) that he has had no problems with and a Toy Poodle (female) that he actually quite likes. So it's not all bad.

 

Interestingly the trainer did say that other dogs would probably take an instant disliking to Densil because of how he looks, which I thought was a bit odd! I've never heard of that before.

 

The main reason that Densil hasn't been socialised with other dogs is because my friend walks him very early in the morning and very late at night to avoid seeing other dog walkers in her area. When she first got him people would accuse her of owning a pitbull and would refuse to let their dogs socialise with him. Once she even had a man yelling in her face about muzzling him. Being the sensitive person that she is, she took this very badly and I think some of her insecurities have rubbed off on Densil.

 

In the house he behaves impecably, ignores my cats and has actually learnt all of the necessary commands for the bronze award. So it definitely seems to be a dog socialisation problem and not an obedience one. I'm not sure what else we could try for him though?

 

Sorry, I realise that this has shiffted from Tess to Densil, but it's all relative.

 

I think you are right about trying to achieve too much from one class though. Tess is disobedient but great with other dogs and Densil is obedient but unsocialised. Maybe for the time being it would be better to just focus on supporting my friend and Densil.

[gremlin22]

sorry to go against what a trainer says but if denzel is ok in your home, but not in a class, then the class is too much for him. it's one thing to be scared of spiders and see one run across the floor but if you're shut in a room with ten of them you're gonna be a lot more distressed. I would have thought he would be better off socialised in more gradual steps, find another dog for the pair of you to walk with, calm well socialised one obviously, and then build it up, go for walks in places where there are more dogs but they are on lead so it's more controlled, there's a local nature reserve type place near me where all dogs have to be on leads but it's a beutiful place to walk and there's a lot of walkers. It's unfair on the other dogs in the class and denzel to use what is supposed to be a bronze citizen training class as a socialisation class.

denzel does not sound like a bad dog at all, he sounds very much like my dog when i got her ( she was 6 yrs old) she would gob off at dogs that she took a dislike to, particularly if they were noisy with her, but after a lot of work socialising her (walks first, then a purley socialising class, then normal training classes) she is much better and now does agility off lead alongside other dogs. There's still the odd dog she will have a bark at but she settles down much quicker now.She was six and a half years old when she started agility so older dogs can learn just as well, like all dogs they just need motivation.

i think one to one would help your friends dog, not long term but at least a one off so the behaviourist can give your friend some tools to help her with denzel, it's amazing how much dogs do pick up on from their owners.

clickers as others have said are great, but you need to start teaching tess around the house first where she wont get distracted. also most dogs have a position they prefer to stay in, as someone else said there's does better in "down" mine does better in "sit" so just see which tess prefers.

as i've said before tho i'm not a trainer i'm just going off what i've done with my dog and stuff i've picked up from other people.

 

if you're both concerned about the test can you not defer and re take the test when you're ready? i know the training centre near me allows that so you have time to go away and work on areas that need it but you don't have to sit the test straight away if you don't feel ready, maybe you and your friend could work together and return to the class two weeks before the next test after this one? ( did that make any sense? sorry )

 

anyways good luck, fingers crossed for all 4 of you

[Mrs Mop]

I haven't tried clicker training, I've heard of it but don't know anything about it. I will definitely look into it though. I think having treats in my hand does encourage Tess to jump up, but when I ignore her she just goes off to nick the treats from the other dogs! She is quite resourceful

 

She sounds like my type of dog What my dogs have taught me is to think outside the box, if what I am doing doesn't work, they think of something else, if she is nicking the other dogs treats then make sure she can't by having some sort of barrier between them. That is a lot easier to say than do.

 

 

I haven't made myself sound very good in the last two posts,

 

Nope, you sound like someone who really cares about her dog but don't know how to solve the problems.

 

 

We did try crating him on one trip but he managed to chew through it within about 10 seconds!

 

Sounds like Ellie, when she was in the vets they had to take her out of her crate, put a harness on her and fasten her to one of the computer tables with a comfy bed and a bowl of water. She had a wonderful time because everyone who came to use the computers played with her.

 

My friend has asked the trainer if Densil would be better getting one to one training, but she said no as the main issue is socialising him with other dogs.

 

She doesn't understand aggression then, Densil needs a trainer who does.

 

I think you are right about trying to achieve too much from one class though. Tess is disobedient but great with other dogs and Densil is obedient but unsocialised. Maybe for the time being it would be better to just focus on supporting my friend and Densil.

 

I suspect it is more that Tess doesn't understand what you want of her than disobedience or her wages arn't high enough.

[blackmagic]

You've had a lot of advice to digest but can I add that if this was my dog , to discourage the jumping up, I would reward by putting the treat on the floor.

between her paws.

 

Practice at home , where you can take your time.

 

I would ask her to sit. When she does reach between her front paws with a treat enclosed in my hand. I would rest my hand on the floor and , if she is sitting, release the treat onto the floor, or open my hand , still resting on the floor, and let her take from my hand.

 

If she has moved out of the sit I would say something to indicate that I didn't want that, like 'oops' and repeat the cue to sit and start again. if she moves as you open your hand, quickly close your hand around the treat so that she doesn't get it.

 

I would probably do this kneeling in front of her, so that it was easier to hold my hand on the floor and she would be inclined to stay near the hand rather than jump up.

 

Let her work out that she gets the treat in the sitting position. Once she can stay sitting you can increase the time before you release the treat, to build up the time sitting.

 

Then you can try it standing in front of her, or beside her, and when she stays sitting bend down and give her the treat at floor level. If she copes with that then you can start to give her the reward at , say, chest level, so that she is still focusing down for the treat, rather than looking up.

 

She needs to learn that sit means sit on your bum and stay there, before you start to leave her.

[Laura_E]

Just a quick update on this.

 

Unfortunately, Densil attacked Tess during some one to one training the other night. The trainer had hoped that having a dog there that he was familiar with would help with his socialisation, but as soon as he was let off lead he went for her and pinned her down.

 

Luckily Tess was wearing a harness and Densil had hold of that in his mouth instead of her actual flesh. Thankfully she managed to escape with a small nip on her ear and I managed to prize his jaws open quite quickly. I know I probably didn't restrain him in the safest way, but my main concern was Tess and her welfare. All my injuries are self inflicted from thowing myself around the floor!! It was all over within about 10 seconds, but it really felt like a life time and although Tess was wagging her tail five minutes later, I felt incredibly guilty for not getting him off quicker.

 

Margaret (Mrs Mop) knows about this and has been a huge help. We are now looking into taking Densil to a behaviourist and Margaret has suggested some where that looks really great, but is quite a distance away. It seems that they use 'teaching dogs' that show other dogs how to behave in an appropriate way, which Densil needs.

 

On a more positive note, Tess's stay is coming along slowly but surely. I can now take two steps away from her and she will stay put 80% of the time. I know we're still long way off, but it's progress!

[Fee]

Oh no, poor Tess, I'm glad she wasn't badly hurt. I feel sorry for Densil and his owner too, it sounds as though he was put in a situation he wasn't anything like ready for so it will have been a setback for him and will have done nothing for your friend's confidence

 

Good progress with Tess, though, well done

[blackmagic]

Just a quick update on this.

 

Unfortunately, Densil attacked Tess during some one to one training the other night. The trainer had hoped that having a dog there that he was familiar with would help with his socialisation, but as soon as he was let off lead he went for her and pinned her down.

 

Luckily Tess was wearing a harness and Densil had hold of that in his mouth instead of her actual flesh. Thankfully she managed to escape with a small nip on her ear and I managed to prize his jaws open quite quickly. I know I probably didn't restrain him in the safest way, but my main concern was Tess and her welfare. All my injuries are self inflicted from thowing myself around the floor!! It was all over within about 10 seconds, but it really felt like a life time and although Tess was wagging her tail five minutes later, I felt incredibly guilty for not getting him off quicker.

 

Margaret (Mrs Mop) knows about this and has been a huge help. We are now looking into taking Densil to a behaviourist and Margaret has suggested some where that looks really great, but is quite a distance away. It seems that they use 'teaching dogs' that show other dogs how to behave in an appropriate way, which Densil needs.

 

On a more positive note, Tess's stay is coming along slowly but surely. I can now take two steps away from her and she will stay put 80% of the time. I know we're still long way off, but it's progress!

 

That will be Angela Stockdale http://www.dogpartnership.com/ or one of her followers