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Buying Or Rescuing.


Melp

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............................... I understand and respect the fact that other people may/will have opinions different to mine, sometimes strongly so. However I would never attempt to put somebody on a bloody huge guilt trip, so much so that every time they look at a particular pet they are reminded that they are a wicked, selfish person for taking on that pet.

 

My first thought after I posted the original thread that caused this topic was "I knew I shouldn't have told people" but I am an honest person and it took a lot of guts for me to come out and say it. Some of your posts echoed my feelings, some were downright upsetting, some outlandish and a few were written with a lot of thought before commenting and were said with honesty but without malice and I respect that.............................................

 

To be honest I dipped into your original thread & left again without commenting, just as I did this one with the first couple of posts - wondering what the point of either was?

 

More specifically with your's I found myself wondering why you felt the need to post it, whether you feel guilty, who on earth anyone else is to judge etc. I haven't been back to it (though I'm now curious) so can't say whether I think your feelings / comments are fair but ultimately it was your decision to make and you've made it. If you can live with that (and I'm not implying there's any reason you shouldn't in that) then why worry what anyone else thinks?

 

I hope that you will continue to feel welcome to post here (or anywhere else you choose to post) and to support rescue(s) in whatever way(s) you can but either way you made you're decision & I wish you a long & happy life with "pup" :flowers:

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All of my own dogs have come from a rescue / pound background but I can't ever understand why anyone would want to stop breeding completely or how it would help long term. It would obviously not happen overnight but ultimately without some breeding you would indeed one day end up without your Beagle.......... Gsd, rottie, collie, greyhound or whatever your preferred breed.

 

Ultimately reputable breeders will only breed what they can sell. The problem rescue dogs face is surely not that they were bred at all but that they were abandoned / let down by someone after they had been bred :(

an excellent post. :flowers:

 

Kazz/Redditchlady and I have both bred a litter of pups,both had one returned and both kept the dog (Korky and Ebbi). I would consider that we were both responsible breeders. I went to great trouble to health check Rani and then find a dog with the right temperament,relevant health chcks and looks before I bred my litter.I say looks because rotties noses were getting shorter and shorter causing breathing problems. Rani had a standard (not short) nose and I looked for a dog with a "good" nose because I wanted free breathing pups. I researched the line for HD,epelepsy,eye defects,elbow trouble etc before i went ahead. So in my opinion I was a good breeder that bred a good litter of pups so I would be horrified if Rottie lovers were scared of buying my pups through fear of being attacked verbally by rescue people. I have rescued hundreds and hundreds more dogs than I have ever bred,and the speific reason for breeding that litter was because three of my friends specifically wanted a good puppy from Rani. I do not feel guilty about breeding from Rani and all the pups except Ebbi stayed in brilliant homes,and Ebbi came back to me. There will always be a need for breeders but the not so good,the bad and the puppy farms should be put out of business. x

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but what do you expect from people who try every single day to make a difference, give up all their own time and energy to rescue dogs, and then people who know about the problem buy one. What are people supposed to do, just stay schtum?

 

 

I've bought dogs, but they have gone straight to rescues, I've bought a pit bull, I;ve bought a few salukis.

I have a much greater understanding of passing a pet shop and buying to save than planned buying.

 

If you have made the right choice for you why on earth do you feel guilty? what difference does other peoples opinions make to your ownership of a dog?

I suspect that you also feel guilty, as you wouldn't be so affected.

 

I've had loads of criticism for my Spanish dogs, does if effect me? not one jot, I couldn't give a monkeys what anyone thinks, I am secure in my own mind. ( I have been offered a few Iggy's from Spain as they end up in rescue there more than here).

 

On your first point: Personally, a little compassion for people as well as animals perhaps?

 

The last bit: I just smiled at - as it's basically the same attitude I've just espoused above :rolleyes:

 

Whilst I entirely understood & agreed with this

Its very easy to say you'd never do it, its a damn sight harder to turn your back once you've had sight of the dog.

 

Your bit in the middle I just don't "get". You seem to imply that it's okay to buy a dog - from anywhere - just as long as you then send it to rescue kennels but just don't you dare give him / her a loving home yourself ? :unsure: If that is indeed what you do suggest then how is that not still supporting the BYB / Puppy mill or any better than a loving home, vets care etc etc from the off?

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Ian I work with teenagers who have appaling lives, I save my compassion for the real tribulations of life, that people can't make informed decisions about, abuse etc etc

I am not compassionate about choices that people choose to make, I don't see that this is worthy of compassion in my view ( but I am a black and white person) it's the consequences of a personal choice

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No we're not all strong, resilient types - I'm about as far from that as anyone.

 

I just don't see how you could ever expect anyone on an animal welfare forum to applaud someone for knowingly buying a puppy farmed dog. I'm sorry if that makes me horrible, but having seen the effect of puppy farming on brood bitches and seeing their lives shortened, I feel people do need to speak up against puppy farming and try to encourage others not to support it. If everyone who was opposed to it, remained silent, it would appear to be supported, which it's not. On here anyway. That doesn't mean people wish ill on the dogs, they're the entirely innocent parties after all.

 

No, I've never suggested "applauding" anyone who buys a puppy farmed dog or indeed, any dog. I'm just saying that sometimes it goes rather too far, people get hurt, and I don't see how that helps either the pet shop dog or the breeder-bought dog.

 

Most of us on here have experience of seeing the effects of puppy farming, and most of us loathe it - all I'm saying is that we have to consider how we go about changing things. Frankly (and this isn't aimed at you, Ange :flowers: ) expressing anger or disappointment with someone is hardly likely to change her behaviour. It smacks too much of school and naughty corners.

 

Anger and judgement do have a place in discussion, but if we want to change people's ideas, we need to avoid personal confrontation. If we read something we don't like or which makes us sad/angry (unless it's in contro and asking for responses) then we can ignore it. The message will be loud and clear without people feeling publicly insulted and shamed.

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It seems to me everyone agrees that supporting rescue animals is a priority.

In addition some feel happy in supporting reputable breeders and buying a puppy in some circumstances.

And in addition some wouldn't hesistate to buy a puppy/ dog to get it out of its current situation to offer it better circumstances.

 

All agree about the welfare of the animal.

 

So... with so many articulate, intelligent and passionate people on here why are we wasting time going round in circles instead of putting our heads together to do something about the bigger picture? (I appreciate many are) but some like me have no idea where to begin.

 

I dont think its enough to just support rescues. I dont believe that the 'word' is spread enough. Maybe I live in a closed world but the only time I ever hear about the right/ wrong way of breeding/ buying/ rescuing etc is on these forums. Not everyone goes on forums. The only other stories I hear are about the latest 'dog attack'.

 

One of things that always strikes me is how well intentioned animal lovers have no idea about the rewards and risks of breeding. Just the other day I encountered a person who 'loved their dog so much and all it's good nature' that they were going to breed just once so she can be a mother and we can keep a puppy (yes we have all heard it before). I sat this person down and told them about the risks to their much loved animal, about passing on traits that shouldnt be bred from. This person had never thought about it. Never imagined that it could end badly. 2 weeks later their pet was spayed. How do we start with your average Joe and educate them? So they dont breed from their pet, so those pets dont land up in pet shops, so that byb dont have demands? It's not enough to just say all those on here should never buy a dog for any reason. We are a 'small' community. There is a bigger picture.

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Actually, what I said was it was a closed shop regarding actually buying an iggy, whether it be a pup, adult or one returned due to circumstances.

 

I don't feel guilty, I do feel mad that a couple of people choose to imply that I feel guilty

 

I'm not a mod, host, haven't slated your decision but now I think you're being unfair. As has already been suggested, whether that was you're intention or not, you posted a thread with a title that does seem to imply that you feel guilty and does inevitably invite people to either support or oppose that decision

 

As for the breeders closed shop someone complained about, again I don't "get it". Surely if you want breeders to offer lifelong back up you can't then complain when such dogs can't be found in rescue? :unsure:

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2 weeks later their pet was spayed.

 

How do we start with your average Joe and educate them?

 

Well, that's how. Exactly what you've just done :flowers: , and what we all do, in our own ways.

 

I never miss a chance to mention neutering, puppy farms, and so on when I'm talking to people about dogs - you're right; many people just don't know, and the only way they'll find out is through education - ie being told by those who do know a bit. Some people demonstrate outside pet shops, some write to their MPs about legislation, some belong to anti-puppy farm groups - it isn't fast, but it does change ideas.

 

We should remember that not long ago, dogs roamed around all day, they weren't vaccinated, they bred freely, there weren't efficient flea/worm treatments and they weren't all treated like cherished members of the family. For the most part, that has changed, and that happened through education, as well as relative affluence - most owners can afford the extras now.

 

I don't think we are going round in circles, by the way - I think it's important for all of us to stop and think about what we believe, and why, and how best to achieve the changes we want in society. :)

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Theres 2 posts stickied at the very top of this section, both written by me a VERY long time ago years and years in fact since they werent even written for this forum but were published elsewhere and have been widely plagiarised all over the place. BOTH have been on this forum almost since the day we started up, they BOTH deal with the way people post on forums and on the way conflict can arise over the written word - yet here we go again :( surely the message puppy farms and buying a dog on a whim is BAD BAD BAD is vastly more important than whether or not someone reads a post a certain way and takes offence? I happen to think that you tend to catch more flies with honey rather than with vinegar but some of those responding work or have worked day in and day out for rescue picking up the pieces and making hard decisions that others don't or won't make, so its understandable if they are at times frustrated and perhaps a little pointed in their replies, I know I get sick to death of banging on and on and on about something only to see/hear someone go out and do the exact thing not 5 mins later. If compassion is whats required then it must also be shown to those people too.

 

As for people saying they would hesitate to post for fear of what might be said to them or about them - I'm sorry but I'm the forum admin/bad guy if you think anything thats been said about you or to you is even a fraction of whats said to me or about me either to my face or behind my back then I'm afraid you are mistaken, and I'm still here, I'm still posting, I'm still making the judgment calls knowing full well that there will always be someone who takes offense. Contrary to popular belief I have feelings to, and some of the stuff I hear does hurt and is utterly unfair or untrue but theres very little I can do about it since it's all chinese whispers etc and has that stopped me posting or stopped me making decisions? No it hasn't because my feelings are secondary to my belief in this forum and in the good work it has done and will continue to do and there are some absolutely wonderful people here who make it all worthwhile.

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Ian I work with teenagers who have appaling lives, I save my compassion for the real tribulations of life, that people can't make informed decisions about, abuse etc etc

I am not compassionate about choices that people choose to make, I don't see that this is worthy of compassion in my view ( but I am a black and white person) it's the consequences of a personal choice

 

I'm not sure whether this is still entirely on topic :unsure: but I'm not suggesting that you (or anyone else) isn't entitled to hold - and indeed voice, within reason - their opinion (my critics over the years have also accused me of being too black & white on some issues), but merely that once you've stated your position you sometimes just have to agree to disagree.

 

Taking responsibility I could accept, to a point but a blanket "personal choice" as you seem to describe it strikes me as a dangerous road to go down - For example fat people, drug addicts, homosexuals / lesbians (some believe that's also a choice), smokers, jews etc etc could or have all had someone out there deciding that they don't deserve treatment, do deserve something worse etc etc. Who will decide what is "acceptable" in life in the end?

 

At the end of the day you can't make anyone want to rescue or buy or choose any particular breed, age etc - the choice is theirs. Turn it into good guy bad guy & you only lose whatever support / goodwill you previously had. If however you can still work with them on things you do agree on then you may achieve something you both want.

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Interesting point. :flowers:

 

I'd like to hear why buying a dog (from wherever) is any worse than buying horses, cats, small pets, poultry - just to have a specific breed/type/colour - when there are so many needing homes already. I never hear any criticism of that kind of purchase. Why? Are dogs' lives worth more than that of a fish, say?

 

 

 

Some of us are in danger of sounding self-righteous. Believe me, when you're my age, you recognise that none of us is perfect. We all have "flaws", we all fall short of our own standards at some point, we will all need support and understanding. When that happens, I hope we all find it. Admirable though it is to have concern for animal welfare, it wouldn't do us any harm to consider our fellow-humans sometimes.

 

Thats a good point Liz and one I've wondered about myself. There are people here who buy or have bought horses, there are people who breed cats, rats and snails DESPITE there being many thousands of these animals in rescues.

It always surprises me that no-one in the "other animals" forum get slated yet when it comes to dogs they do [and I've done it myself!]

 

Wha do you mean we're not all perfect? I am :angel: :laugh:

 

 

.

 

Anger and judgement do have a place in discussion, but if we want to change people's ideas, we need to avoid personal confrontation. If we read something we don't like or which makes us sad/angry (unless it's in contro and asking for responses) then we can ignore it. The message will be loud and clear without people feeling publicly insulted and shamed.

 

Indeed.

 

At the end of the day we're all adults and are free to make our own decisions, whether other people agree with them or not.

No-one should be made to feel unwelcome or that they can't post.

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Thats a good point Liz and one I've wondered about myself. There are people here who buy or have bought horses, there are people who breed cats, rats and snails DESPITE there being many thousands of these animals in rescues.

It always surprises me that no-one in the "other animals" forum get slated yet when it comes to dogs they do [and I've done it myself!]

 

Wha do you mean we're not all perfect? I am :angel: :laugh:

 

And obviously I am as well. :angel: I thought it went without saying. :laugh:

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I have three collies, all have been bought.

 

Two I bought as young pups (Keira & Tia), I saw them first when they were about a week old, number three (Glen) was 5.5 months when I got him and he is about the closest (so far) to being a rescue.

 

Keira has had health issues, possibly due to breeding but was a dream as far as having my first 'proper' collie, Tia has been v healthy but has aggression issues, not sure if that is breeding or unfortunate happenstance. Glen has a great temperament, is healthy but I did struggle a bit with housetraining.

 

I have a friend who bred her collie bitch last year but she did a LOT of research first did ALL the health checks available and will take back any pups if necessary. I know there are loads of collies out there but I would hate to see the good breeders like my friend stop breeding.

 

Maybe one day I will feel able to take on a rescue but right now, I am not sure that I could :unsure: unless it was a young pup which, as I work, I couldn't have anyway. In the meantime I try to support rescues in the ways I can, homechecks/transport runs/selling cards.

 

So I guess I am in both camps, I would hate to see the diversity of breeds we have size/temperament etc die out so am in favour of responsible breeders but would love it if we ever came to a time when there was waiting lists for all dogs pedigree or not.

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Maybe one day I will feel able to take on a rescue but right now, I am not sure that I could :unsure: unless it was a young pup which, as I work, I couldn't have anyway. In the meantime I try to support rescues in the ways I can, homechecks/transport runs/selling cards.

 

Sandra, do you mind if I ask why you aren't sure if you could take on a rescue? You're an experienced owner who seems to put in a lot of effort to train/do stuff with your dogs. Just curious, no obligation to answer! :flowers:

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