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Buying Or Rescuing.


Melp

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Some of us are in danger of sounding self-righteous. Believe me, when you're my age, you recognise that none of us is perfect. We all have "flaws", we all fall short of our own standards at some point, we will all need support and understanding. When that happens, I hope we all find it. Admirable though it is to have concern for animal welfare, it wouldn't do us any harm to consider our fellow-humans sometimes.

 

Surely that applys both ways tho? If people are expected to have concern for our fellow human beings then that must include a concern for the feelings of those who may not agree with our decisions and opinions - yet threads are being posted with titles which say things like - "I have a confession to make and I know you wont like it sorry" it's almost daring people to say anything negative and thats unfair. The fact that people have spoken out against breeders and puppy farms and buying puppys on a whim, is a GOOD thing on an animal welfare forum and no one here should be made to feel that they dare not speak out about those issues for fear of offending a fellow member who has chosen to do something that we really wouldn't advocate or promote as the best way to get a dog. At the same time those who DO opt to go to a reputable breeder and do their homework etc shouldnt feel unwelcome here, theres room for everyone, so long as ALL sides of the debate show a little respect for differing opinions and don't expect that everyone will always agree with them or approve of them.

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Admirable though it is to have concern for animal welfare, it wouldn't do us any harm to consider our fellow-humans sometimes.

 

I think, given the amount of support people on this forum offer others, whether animals are involved or not, that sentence is a tad unfair.

 

Also, just because people don't approve of the way a person acquires a new pet, it doesn't mean they are not going to offer support for anything else happening in that person's life. As has been made very evident on the Refuge.

 

I would also add that a negative reaction to someone buying a puppy from a less than reputable source, ie puppy farm/shop, is not just something you see on an animal welfare forum such as the Refuge where many own rescue dogs/are involved in rescue. I've seen similar, if not harsher, reactions from places where people predominantly own dogs bought as pups from breeders. It's a good thing, the more people that speak out against puppy farming, the better.

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no it's just a view point as I can see that there was compassion and pity at the basis of the whim, rather than just I want, I was thinking about what Emma said in regards to breeders clamming up about rescue or older dogs etc.. I wouldn't buy a dog from people who were unwilling to discuss how they treated their stock.

 

Actually, what I said was it was a closed shop regarding actually buying an iggy, whether it be a pup, adult or one returned due to circumstances.

I don't feel guilty, I do feel mad that a couple of people choose to imply that I feel guilty, it was discussed several times as a family unit and getting another rescue was brought up because getting one from rescue was attempted. I'm certainly not going to sit and slate Lottie's breeder, who has always been the other end of a phone call away and in fact has rung regularly to make sure all is ok, I met Lottie's parents and grandparents and an Iggy boy they used to board for someone who could no longer keep him so they took him on. So yes, I could see exactly how she treated her "stock" as you call them.

(Funny another refuge member mentioned a breeder sleeping on the sofa for 5 weeks, so did Lottie's breeder).

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I think FOR ME it's the personal gratification bit which makes the difference.

 

Yes, and I don't think you're alone; I think many people feel the same way. As a moral stance though, it doesn't work for me because for me it's the dog's welfare which is at the centre of things, and not the human's perception of right and wrong.

 

A dog removed from bad circumstances (or even just a dog bought and taken to an excellent home) isn't going to give a damn whether money has changed hands, or whether the first person gave him a home, or handed him on to another person to home. He's not interested in our personal gratification; only his own.

 

I suppose what all this confirms is that we all have our own ideas of what is right, what is sensible, what is best for dogs. There are shades of grey in everything; few things are clear-cut. :flowers:

 

If there were only rescue dogs available, I'd probably be ok because I'd find an old mongrel I like somewhere. Similarly, it's fine for those who only want staffies or collies or greyhounds. I happen to have a cavalier at the moment (a private re-home) but I don't have her for her looks - I want a calm, undemanding dog, and she is. I would never have a staffie, or a collie, or any dog which was boisterous and full-on - that just doesn't appeal to me - so I can see why breed matters to some people.

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I think, given the amount of support people on this forum offer others, whether animals are involved or not, that sentence is a tad unfair.

 

Also, just because people don't approve of the way a person acquires a new pet, it doesn't mean they are not going to offer support for anything else happening in that person's life. As has been made very evident on the Refuge.

 

I would also add that a negative reaction to someone buying a puppy from a less than reputable source, ie puppy farm/shop, is not just something you see on an animal welfare forum such as the Refuge where many own rescue dogs/are involved in rescue. I've seen similar, if not harsher, reactions from places where people predominantly own dogs bought as pups from breeders. It's a good thing, the more people that speak out against puppy farming, the better.

 

Lottie is most certainly not a puppy farm dog. But I do agree about speaking out about puppy farming. As for other posts about why post if you knew it was going to cause conflict - yes I could have kept quiet, not told anyone (although a few already knew so it would have got out eventually) but supposed we bumped into each other at Bowood or on a Fugee walk, what do you think I was going to do, leave her at home and deprive her in case it caused tension?

Or bring her along, wait for someone to comment and say "Iggy, what Iggy? Nope, can't see one"?

And that is predominantly the reason that I told you all - if I had been using RMF I admit I possibly would have mentioned it there instead of opening a thread but to go to an event in say 18 months time, bump into someone from the Refuge and not have mentioned her, don't you think that would have been even worse???

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Actually, what I said was it was a closed shop regarding actually buying an iggy, whether it be a pup, adult or one returned due to circumstances.

I don't feel guilty, I do feel mad that a couple of people choose to imply that I feel guilty, it was discussed several times as a family unit and getting another rescue was brought up because getting one from rescue was attempted. I'm certainly not going to sit and slate Lottie's breeder, who has always been the other end of a phone call away and in fact has rung regularly to make sure all is ok, I met Lottie's parents and grandparents and an Iggy boy they used to board for someone who could no longer keep him so they took him on. So yes, I could see exactly how she treated her "stock" as you call them.

(Funny another refuge member mentioned a breeder sleeping on the sofa for 5 weeks, so did Lottie's breeder).

 

Emma sorry to single out your post again but you say you don't feel guilty, OK thats fine I can accept that, so why then post the thread title that you did? Why not instead just say hey everyone heres my new addition, why apologise? And having clearly known that your choice probably wasn't going to be approved of by some people but having made it anyway, WHY would those opinions now make you feel uncomfortable posting here? I seriously don't get it. :flowers:

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Surely that applys both ways tho? If people are expected to have concern for our fellow human beings then that must include a concern for the feelings of those who may not agree with our decisions and opinions - yet threads are being posted with titles which say things like - "I have a confession to make and I know you wont like it sorry" it's almost daring people to say anything negative and thats unfair. .

 

I didn't read it like that at all. I think both posters knew full well that they would meet disapproval, but didn't want NOT to admit what they'd done. I wouldn't have been so brave/naive, as I said - I would have known what to expect and would have steered clear. I'm probably more cynical than them.

 

All I'm saying is that we're not all perfect. It's one thing to register mild disappointment, but I found the intitial thread (Yena's) very uncomfortable reading. That's impossible to explain, so there's no point in demanding proof. Sometimes, it's more to do with tone than actual words.

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As for other posts about why post if you knew it was going to cause conflict - yes I could have kept quiet, not told anyone (although a few already knew so it would have got out eventually) but supposed we bumped into each other at Bowood or on a Fugee walk, what do you think I was going to do, leave her at home and deprive her in case it caused tension?

Or bring her along, wait for someone to comment and say "Iggy, what Iggy? Nope, can't see one"?

And that is predominantly the reason that I told you all - if I had been using RMF I admit I possibly would have mentioned it there instead of opening a thread but to go to an event in say 18 months time, bump into someone from the Refuge and not have mentioned her, don't you think that would have been even worse???

 

I think this is the reason why I admitted what I'd done. I could of told a lie, said she'd been born in rescue just like Dilys had. But, one lies leads to another.

Do people honestly think, if I'd change my title or changed the way I posted my thread it would of made any difference to how people posted their answer. I think not.

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"I am realistic enough to realise that we will never stop breeding, but, would like to see stricter rules for this, and I dont mean the acredited breeder scheme, I would like to see where it becomes illegal to breed from dogs that havent been health tested or temperment tested with the test relevent to that breed, all pups tattooed or chipped to the breeder that bred them so that if a dog they bred ended up in the pound or rescue the breeder would be liable for cost until that dog has found a new home, oh I could go on and on but am sure you get the gist of it "

 

 

I agree with that wholeheartedly x

 

 

Having been involved in rescue for over 20 years and seeing endless dogs that have been brought into a World that doesn't respect or care for them there is no way that I could encourage breeders however 'good' they are.

 

I adore Beagles and couldn't imagine being without one or more in my life but if it meant buying from a breeder then I would have to live without them unfortunately.

 

I know many breeders who are also involved in rescue but I do find that at odds with how I see things-at the end of the day they are just putting more dogs out there with the risk of them having a rotten life.

 

I was only saying to a friend the other day how the majority of 'ordinary' dog owners do not have any understanding of canine psychology and a dog's needs and I am talking about those that 'love' their dogs. It's really quite worrying. It is not enough to 'love' a dog or whatever people mean when they say that. They need to respect their needs that's what gives a dog the life it deserves.

 

 

All of my own dogs have come from a rescue / pound background but I can't ever understand why anyone would want to stop breeding completely or how it would help long term. It would obviously not happen overnight but ultimately without some breeding you would indeed one day end up without your Beagle.......... Gsd, rottie, collie, greyhound or whatever your preferred breed.

 

Ultimately reputable breeders will only breed what they can sell. The problem rescue dogs face is surely not that they were bred at all but that they were abandoned / let down by someone after they had been bred :(

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I think, given the amount of support people on this forum offer others, whether animals are involved or not, that sentence is a tad unfair.

 

Also, just because people don't approve of the way a person acquires a new pet, it doesn't mean they are not going to offer support for anything else happening in that person's life. As has been made very evident on the Refuge.

 

I would also add that a negative reaction to someone buying a puppy from a less than reputable source, ie puppy farm/shop, is not just something you see on an animal welfare forum such as the Refuge where many own rescue dogs/are involved in rescue. I've seen similar, if not harsher, reactions from places where people predominantly own dogs bought as pups from breeders. It's a good thing, the more people that speak out against puppy farming, the better.

 

I think the point is that some people might feel so "got at" that they wouldn't post about anything else. We're not all strong, resilient types with complete conviction about the rightness of our every action or belief (I include myself, despite what it might look like on contro sometimes). I was pleading the case for being a bit more accepting, for showing the kind of understanding and sensitivity that we show animals; that's all.

 

I know that breed forums don't like puppy farms - but then, some might say that even "good" breeders are only making profit out of their animals, so who are they to judge? I abhor puppy farms, but I'm not that keen on most "normal" breeders that I've met, either.

 

Again, it's all down to individual perception of right or wrong. :flowers:

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sorry I missed the point a bit there, the pit bull was on an estate in peckham that I worked next to and was due to be disposed of in a very nasty way as he was too gentle, I payed £100 and he went to a rescue where he was kept by the then manager and went on to live a very happy life. I would happily of kept him except I lived near by and someone would have stolen him. Salukis went to breed rescue and were homed to people who wanted salukis but didn't want to go via a breeder. Again they were living in terrible conditions. i would happily do it again, with no worries at all, I wasn't satisfying my own personal I want.

 

But these people got money to obtain another dog/s to mistreat, just like the BYB.

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I think the point is that some people might feel so "got at" that they wouldn't post about anything else. We're not all strong, resilient types with complete conviction about the rightness of our every action or belief (I include myself, despite what it might look like on contro sometimes). I was pleading the case for being a bit more accepting, for showing the kind of understanding and sensitivity that we show animals; that's all.

 

I know that breed forums don't like puppy farms - but then, some might say that even "good" breeders are only making profit out of their animals, so who are they to judge? I abhor puppy farms, but I'm not that keen on most "normal" breeders that I've met, either.

 

Again, it's all down to individual perception of right or wrong. :flowers:

 

No we're not all strong, resilient types - I'm about as far from that as anyone.

 

I just don't see how you could ever expect anyone on an animal welfare forum to applaud someone for knowingly buying a puppy farmed dog. I'm sorry if that makes me horrible, but having seen the effect of puppy farming on brood bitches and seeing their lives shortened, I feel people do need to speak up against puppy farming and try to encourage others not to support it. If everyone who was opposed to it, remained silent, it would appear to be supported, which it's not. On here anyway. That doesn't mean people wish ill on the dogs, they're the entirely innocent parties after all.

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Just on the comment of breeding a breed with health problems, my friend and many others within the bulldogs are trying to breed better dogs, I can tell my friends line of breeding very quickly now as she has managed to breed bulldogs with a broken stop (the roll of skin over the nose, most are a long line of skin) this enables her dogs to breathe better and be much more active, hence why she gets marked down at shows :)

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