No Reward Markers/interrupters Etc

[purple_mog]

Carrying on a conversation with Khanu that started from the David Ryan chase/behaviour seminars over the weekend - I had commented on the use of NRM (no reward markers) which he uses a sound like "ah!" or training discs for. Its not something I use either with my own dogs or with client dogs as yet, basically because I've never needed to.

 

Kelly's comment was

 

By the way I've been thinking about the non-reward marking and keep going thing. I'm wondering whether he finds it useful because he isn't a clicker trainer? I find that the absence of the click is enough feedback when I'm teaching something new, and so don't feel the need for a NRM or keep going signal. However he said that he isn't good with the clicker and doesn't use it, so maybe if your feedback isn't as precise as with the clicker giving extra feedback is useful? Is it that most owners just don't give feedback unless its of the "stop it" variety and he has found that to get them to give the postive feedback he has to allow them to have something for the negative? To get them on board and compliant?

 

I've also been thinking that maybe I do use an NRM of sorts - not when training particularly (as in clicker sessions, teaching new behaviour etc) but in general everyday, I do use "ah" as an interrupter of sorts, meaning whatever it is you are doing, stop it and look at me and be redirected (if you see what I mean) . Not quite the same as an NRM but not a million miles away either I guess.

 

I'm still not convinced that a watch me behaviour is ideal for fear aggression, but can see it being better for frustration. But my ideal is for a relaxed walk past the scary thing, I don't want to keep stopping and doing a watch me really, I'm happy for a dog to do a relaxed watch of whatever it is - as long as it really is a relaxed watch and not a freaked out stare! Maybe though a sit and watch me is an easier behaviour for most owners to get, would the majority of owners be able to recognise the relaxation you would want? - is it easier to get it in a sit and watch by default? Dunno.....

 

 

So why don't I see the need for it??? Maybe its because like you I do more of the 'pure' style clicker training, that most of the dogs I deal with are pretty damn nervous and lacking in confidence - so the last thing I want to do is give strong negative feedback.... Indeed the only confident dog I've worked with that I even considered it for would have seen even a NRM as an attention reward!

 

I do my sessions differently too, I'm not comfortable with giving people an intense couple of hours then letting them get on with it. I do shorter initial sessions about an hour face to face (after phone calls and vet consent/history) and then at least one or two follow-ups, and for reactivity/lack of confidence conditions I then move them into classes to practice more real-life behaviours.

 

So I'm actively trying to change the way they interact with their dog and communicate - my experience is people are very very keen to give negative feedback and get carried away with it. Even when training a leave command its hard to keep voices happy and light! So I don't want to encourage the old mentality of correcting the negative - so we usually use witholding the reward and nothing more...

So its still negative punishment BUT seems to have less impact on the dog (but still enough) and makes the owner focus on what was motivating the dog rather than a magic correction word...

 

Am rambling now so will stop!

 

PS I don't actually think NRM are the devil's work etc, just not sure needed or helpful when changing the owner's perspective?

[cycas]

I did wonder from his book if he'd mostly been training the sort of dog that

 

bulldozes through everything,cheerful grin, lead trailing

 

and the owner is sort of in the distance shouting ineffectually

 

 

'Bad Rover! stop that at once you naughty boy'

rather than the kind of dog that will stand and look at you for 10 minutes then hide under a table because he can't handle the pressure of you standing there expecting at him...

[purple_mog]

I did wonder from his book if he'd mostly been training the sort of dog that

....

 

 

*snort* truthfully I get the feeling that yes, he generally does work with dogs, and owners that perhaps need a less than subtle approach! Does the book go into the aversive citronella collar training stuff too? Its interesting - more so because he presented it in some detail yet there were people in the audience with relatively little experience of training let alone behaviour, and no idea if they had the necessary timing skills to use it effectively...

 

Not sure there was anything to add to what you're already doing, but happy to send you the handouts?

 

Fundamentally I may be a softly softly person who just doesn't see the need for causing stress so I'd rather go out more often? For example his video of desensitising to presence of another dog made me cringe...At the point where the dog kicks off you missed all the signs of unhappiness, this is not a success and staring frantically at your face to avoid looking at the scary dog is not my preferred idea of a coping strategy.

 

But anyway!

[cycas]

Yes, it does, though it is fenced with many many 'you only do this if x,y & z have all failed and it's a real desperate situation' provisos.

 

I've not come close to doing x, y & z with Duke yet anyway, but I am getting the vibe that the book is canted towards herding dogs rather than sighthounds so I certainly won't be using the 'chapter 10 aversives': I'd rather just admit defeat if it gets to the point where I've done all the rest of it and nothing has worked.

 

I will admit, I have had mental visions of David Ryan rushing about playing energetically like a mad collie with endless identical toys on strings while a greyhound looks down his long, long nose, and stares, and stares, and eventually, lies down and goes to sleep....

 

That said, the way Ryan lays out prey drive concepts in the book is really helpful, when combined with the stuff I've been reading about working sighthound prey drive.

 

If you've got the notes in emaillable format I'd certainly be interested in having a look, but probably not to the point where I'm desperate to read them if you have to photocopy them and stick a stamp on!

[khanu]

he presented it in some detail yet there were people in the audience with relatively little experience of training let alone behaviour, and no idea if they had the necessary timing skills to use it effectively...

 

Hmm, I vaguely remember someone saying (possibly Pauline?) that he was aiming the talk at a slightly different audience as it was being held at the college and many of the audience were students?

 

I think it was very much aimed at an audience who knew what they were about really. When I spoke to him about the use of aversives in the break he said something along the lines of it wouldn't be necessary very often, and if client didn't require it (say, they were happy with the enclosed tennis court, or like me to keep them on lead around things they will chase) then he wouldn't go that far, but he "owed" it to the audience to explain what you can do - the reasons for using disgust over fear and how to do it as the audience should know how to do it properly - I got the impression that he believed he was basically talking to a bunch of behaviourists who would be treating similar cases. Certainly I assumed that the audience were basically students or practising behaviourists/trainers.......

 

I don't like the video either. I'd perhaps give him the benefit of the doubt though as I think it was entirely rushed to get something made. I think at the end although the aggressive dog wasn't completely relaxed he was more relaxed than at the beginning, although I saw that he still needed to look over to the other dog, he couldn't give continual eye contact to the handler.......which is why I think the whole watch me thing isn't that great - I don't think you actually get what you want in the first place, I think the tendancy is to get a dog who swtiches between looking at you and the scary thing, which I actually don't have a problem with, my problem comes from "pressuring" the dog to look at me when actually he wants to keep an eye on scary thing too?

 

I didn't get the impression he never sees the "sensitive" type dog, more that the majority of cases end up being a case of dog in home with owners who haven't done anything, when the basics are in place and "instinctive urges" are given a better outlet many (most?) cases are sorted. Since I'm not currently seeing any cases it's hard for me to say whether this is the case or not. I can maybe see that the kind of cases you end up seeing may be skewed depending on how you get referrals, maybe his net is wider? If there are less trainers in his area maybe he gets a lots of cases that actually would have been sorted by just some training classes.

 

I think there may also be something about clicker trainers be more softy? And I mean those trainers that embrace the whole clicker method ethos, not those that just train with a clicker. maybe we spend so much time looking at behaviour in incremental steps that we treat behavioural modification in the same way? Or maybe since to be successful shaping you need to setup for success, that that rubs off when you look at other aspects. For instance in that video, if it had been me with the aggressive dog I wouldn't have been moving him towards the other dog so quickly and in such big steps, it would have been tiny steps and lots of moving away after success and I wonder whether that is just because I'm so used to doing the same when training normally. Personally I feel that way moves along just as quickly (probably more quickly) as the big leaps but with less stress and no need for no reward markers (or not) because the dog is pretty much always successful? I know that some stress is healthy and dogs should be acclimatised to it as life can be stressful at times, I'm just not convinced that stress (and I see pushing constantly as stressful) is helpful when you are first learning a behaviour. Once that behaviour is fluent, *then* you can start pushing and adding stressors. Also if you are trying to counter condition an emotional response I don't' see how stress is useful - surely it is counter productive, so the dog maybe is less "scared", but still uncomfortable in the presence of scary-thing, I'd rather that he was completely comfortable, then the step to happy and joyful is smaller and more easily made.

 

Dunno probably talking crap....

 

I'm with you on the NRM thing, I just don't see the need for it really. Even when I do use "ah" it's normally because my brain has failed and I can't think quick enough to ask them to do something else or whatever.

 

Again not practising so don't know really how I would do things, with aggression I just can't see how you could really go just once then come up with a plan and let the owners get on with it even if you do give support by phone/email. You'd need to help them out with stooges surely? Even if you went out only once more to show them the method?

 

I do think maybe there are different view points and that perhaps his view is more the case of changing the owner just enough to allow a harmonious relationship between dog/owner and a decent quality of life. Whereas I can see me wanting to change the owner's beliefs(?) and get them to learn and understand the theory etc. and maybe that's going to be ok with some clients, but maybe there is something to be said for the "good enough" approach rather than the "ideal world" one?

 

Don't know, but I did get annoyed with a couple of audience members when we were going over the case studies, who were saying things like they would want to take the dog away from that home, or that the dog was going to be wasted as it was an intelligent quick thinking dog. I don't think those kind of attitudes are helpful, and as he showed those dogs were able to live happy fulfilled lives with those owners with the changes that were implemented.

 

I liked the seminar a lot. The predictive command and when in the sequence to intervene made a lot of sense. My method of training some of it would probably be a bit different but the overall method would be the same I think. Dont' know whether I would go to the final step or not. I'm going to test it out on me first I think. If it had been a pure fear based thing I don't think I'd even be thinking about it, but using a disgust response is interesting. However I'm also a believer of using a lead.......

 

I was also really interested in his thoughts on how behavioral problems come about - taking it back to the sodding around we've done with the predatory hunt sequence is something I've never heard before. I also like his belief that if the behaviour is "instinctive" then the dog has to be allowed to display that behaviour somehow. His thoughts on search dogs was also interesting, using their coping mechanism to your own advantage and certainly has confirmed my thoughts that Breckin goes into sniff mode when he gets worried.

Has certainly given me a lot to think about with my own dogs, but I'll shut up now since I've written an essay again.

[gremlin22]

i'm not sure where it fits in with this or if it's something totally different, but we have a dog in with us, she's been undersocialised and tormented both physically and mentally before a year old ( been in a year next week!). She's a gsd or belgian shep cross ( listed on here in looking for homes bit). we have been working with a behaviourist with her and i have to say have seen some amazing results.

the behaviourist herself said before starting the work that she doesn't usually use any method that isn't reward based, and it certainly wouldn't be classed as aversive or punishment based, but it does mean putting the dog around something they are not totally comfortable with.

the method is called B.A.T

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/bat/

Tyler had not responded to other attempts to help her cope around strangers and dogs, and could not be walked around other animals even on lead without turning into something resembling a crocodile.

using the bat method, we had to find her critical distance from what was worrying her, one thing at a time, so one stranger, we took her to the distance where she began to react to their presence, and it was a huge distance in some cases, then took a couple of steps back from that to where she was comfortable and started with that as a base line.

the person she was being socialised with was told to ignore her totally and not make eye contact, then we would walk her to the base line distance ( where she was comfy), wait for her to give a calming signal then give a marker word ( we used yay) and turn and walk away straight away. She got praise, either treats ( tho she wasn't very interested in food at this point, or cuddles which she loves) once away from the base line. Then we would turn and go back to the base line and providing she was happy take another step forward, wait for the calming signal, give the marker word and turn away and walk again. gradually we reduced the distance to the stranger, and once she was happy a few feet away, we asked the stranger to move or talk very quietly and throw chicken for her, then we waited for the signal again, gave the marker and walked away. the first time we tried it she took around 20 minutes to come around to someone, then next time around ten minutes, now it takes less than 5 and sometimes only takes her hearing the marker word once for her to realise it's ok to trust someone.once she does she is so affectionate! we have started using it with other dogs too and can now walk her alongside dogs she's never even met before. I realise it won't be right for all dogs, but it worked so so well with tyler. we did initially try a click instead of the marker word,she is used to clickers, but she didn't respond to that at all in that situation, i think there was just too much going on.

i will use a word to break my own dogs behaviour if she's about to do something, just a "ah", but once she's doing something wrong there's no point trying to use the word then as usually whatever she is doing is worth far more.I don't like training discs, maybe i just don't fully understand how to use them, but i'd be worried in a sensetive dog something chucked on the ground next to them making a metallic noise could scare them, and while i appreciate we had to make tyler uncomfy at one point in the BAT training to get a base line, i personally think that's a world away from a bunch of metal discs thrown on the ground near the dog, or even a citronella spray. i guess it's all down to how well you can use them, if your timing or understanding is poor an aversive will always do more harm than good.

each to their own i guess, but i'd have far more respect for a trainer/behaviourist who used reward based methods than one who sung the praises of choke chains, spray collars ( or worse shock collars),alpha rolling etc.

[khanu]

He uses the spray collar under a very specific set of circumstances - it isn't used for fear based aggression, it is used for predatory chasing and it is used only when the rest of the "programme" has been followed through and the dog is *still* chasing the target - even when/if you can call them off of other targets quite readily. The point of it is that the dog finds chasing the target in these circumstances internally reinforcing. He was very specific about how it should be used - when in the predatory chase sequence, how you use disgust rather than fear (through pain) to make the target unpalatable. He was also very clear that in no way is it necessary in the majority of cases.