collies r best Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Sorry if this becomes a long post but i need help and to be honest i feel like crying A bit of backgound info! Izzie is my 20mth old border collie she was speyed in May after her first season, she has no health problems and is normally a over the top friendly collie. Our problems started about 10 days ago, we were out for an early walk as per usual and she was offlead on the common. A young field spaniel ran up to us and they began playing with no problems. I could hear the owner whistling for him so we headed in that direction. As we got closer the spaniel ran around the corner with Izzie right behind. Suddenly Izzie bolted back to me and as i went around the corner puzzled i saw the dogs owner with his six other springer spaniels all offlead and sitting in a perfect row. This appears to have freaked Izzie out and shes terrified of meeting other dogs Since then she wants to see other dogs but as soon as they get close she growls continually and is unhappy. My lovely friendly girl is now scared stiff Pervious to this she always wanted to play no matter what the dog. I've tried with her sitting quietly on the lead whilst i've chatted to people but she hides behind me growling at their dogs, same if we walk along and also if shes offlead. I really dont know what to do, i've no doubt this stems from meeting the spaniels even though they did nothing wrong. We have a good dog behaviourist over here but shes just had a baby and isnt working. How do i get Iz back to her happy former self. Forgot to mention shes also growled at her best friend, a schnauzer whom she normally loves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 When I first got Gracie she had really bad fear aggression to other dogs and by letting her see other dogs at a distance were she felt safe enough that she didn't react, she eventually became really good with other dogs. As she was only 10ins high, most dogs towered above her which is scary. I used to put her in a sit at a distance I knew she wouldn't react because she felt safe, then get her to "Watch Me", I would stand in front of her so she could see the other dog go past. Gradually this distance got shorter and shorter until she was able to pass other dogs without any problem. Gracie was really bad, it took me about 10 months to pass other dogs. Instead of trying to make her feel safe with other dogs, I would keep her at a distance were she felt safe and let her watch them. If I wanted to talk to someone, we usually had to shout because of the distance, but standing talking was was able to gradually get closer, I had to be careful I didn't move forward too fast but I was able to talk to others but from a distance. I found that she was able to cope with these dogs a lot quicker than dogs who's owners I didn't talk to. Unfortunately when she went round the corner you couldn't see if anything did happen, 6 dogs sitting in a row and an off lead dog that didn't go back to the whistle, think I would be suspicious of the training methods and if that owner had done anything to my dog. You will never know, but something more than seeing 6 dogs may have caused this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collies r best Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Thank you You could be right, i just assumed nothing had happened as i was very close behind Its just gutting as shes always been so good with dogs and now to see her so nervous whether its a small or big dog. I've had a dog agressive dog before, Hector was 18months old when i took him on and he just hadnt been socialised, it took a long time and hard work to get him to being about 95% reliable but Izzies problems have thrown me. When we're out shes also frequently pushing her nose into my hand as we walk for reassurance. I tend to ignore this and praise her when shes walking normally. Is this right as i dont want to reinforce anxious behaviour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Just a post from one dog owner to another - firstly don't panic I think you are right not to fuss about it when she appears wary - but praise her if/when she appears confident and friendly. Do you know any other dog owners with friendly dogs? I think I would try to organise meet-ups (just with one or two dogs) where you can let her keep her distance at first if you feel that would be beneficial, but to help to reassure her around other dogs. Will try not to waffle on too much, but wanted to share an experience. I went through something similar with Mins, who is a lovely, friendly, well socialised girl who loves other dogs and always wants to say hello (unless she has a ball/dummy then they can all bog off ). Unfortunately she got freaked out at a dog show when our gazebo frame got caught by the wind and rolled over her (didn't touch her or hurt her but clearly she thought the sky had fallen in). She became snappy with other dogs instantly, obviously not a good association. We went to a few different events and she was snappy with other dogs right up close there and also out on walks, particulary on-lead. She wasn't daft though, if we met a dog was really kicking off on lead at her, she didn't react at all, just kept her head down and ignored it I had a good chat with a friend () who helped me confirm that Mins was a nice girl who had got scared and was snapping out of fear and had no intention of hurting the other dog. So I decided that hiding away from other dogs was the worst thing to do and made a point of seeking out other dogs. I approached a few owners while out walking - initially I did tell them that she'd got scared and a bit snappy so they could politely refuse for us to walk with them if they wanted. I then met up with said friend and some of her dogs and a friend of hers and her dog and Mins was fab, even sat on lead at the pub afterwards with two young Labs wrestling right next to her off-lead. I continued trying to meet as many dogs as possible with her and made sure to praise Mins lots when she showed friendly/confident behaviour towards the other dog. I did also tell her nicely that it was wrong to snap at another dog if they hadn't done anything to deserve the snap. Can't say she won't ever snap at another dog on lead but I know she doesn't want to hurt the other dog so I am a lot more relaxed about it all now. I made a conscious decision to trust her and made sure I let her go up and greet other dogs in her own space. She is now back to being really pleased to greet other dogs. Though she will put them in their place if they are annoying - but I don't have a problem with her doing that if they're trying to hump her, jump at her face etc. it was only when they had done nothing wrong that it was worrying me. Having Mr Moo, who can be grumpy with other dogs, I did panic, but they are two very different dogs and once I realised that I managed to relax and trust her. It does seem strange that Izzie reacted to all those dogs just sat thereand while it's impossible to know how the other owner trains their dogsor what they may have done just before you got to the scene, it doessound as though something about the situation freaked her out. I know it must seem really worrying at the moment but hopefully she will relax around other dogs in time and be back to the friendly Izzie you know End of my rambling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fee Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Just a thought, but it might be worth reading up on the Control Unleashed 'Look at that Dog' exercise where you encourage a dog who's worried about other dogs to look at them from a safe, sub-threshold distance (rather than trying to distract or avoid), and click and reward her for doing so. It sounds contrary to the normal 'look at me' approach, but the idea is that you re-frame a dog's perception of other dogs so that instead of being something scary they become part of a safe 'game' with rules your dog understands, and are an opportunity for her to earn rewards. It allows her to check out the other dog (which she needs to do because she's worried by it) then immediately re-focus on you to get her treat. I've just started this with Sophie, who is very fearful of strange dogs and can be defensive/barky/snappy, and although we have a way to go I'm really pleased with the progress she's making. (I'm afraid I haven't explained it very well, I'm sure someone else here can do a better job!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collies r best Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Thanks Fee, i'll look into that. Ange, thanks as well and you weren't rambling! Its good to hear of a similar experience. I realise that throughout my dog owning years i've been very lucky and just never realised how easy it is for a dog to lose confidence so fast and of couse the more you worry so does your dog. After half term next week when the kids arent around i'm going to meet up with my sister and her two dogs. They're used to each other and after a inital hello they ignore Izzie and continue mooching around in hedges etc following scents while she runs around like a loon.As my sisters allowed into the farmers fields providing the cows aren't there we shouldnt see any other dogs. Hopefully Izzie will relax more as they dont want to play or have chats with her Until then i'll just be careful with her and get walks back to being lots of fun and plenty of treats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Although the fear aggression was well established with Gracie, I never hid her from other dogs unless I couldn't get her at a distance where she didn't react. You can't teach a dog there is nothing to fear if they can't see the other dogs. You know your dog better than anyone else and will know just how fast or slow to go with her. Joe has been attacked many times in the past, he didn't develop fear aggression, he goes into panic attacks instead and later in the day he will have a seizure. I would much prefer the dog aggression, it would be easier to deal with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs B Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Sorry to read about this - I have/have had problems with both of mine being worried by other dogs - and absolutely agree with lots of sensible advice here. Don't make Izzie 'confront' her problem close up - no doubt you're afraid of something - heights, snakes, spiders ........ think how you would feel if someone made you go closer to your 'fear' than you wanted - I guess that is how she is feeling about 'other dogs' just now. Being that bit further away will seem much easier to deal with. Work out what Izzie's safe distance is, and don't make her do a sit, down, or anything if you think she is worried by something, again, would you want to turn your back on a snake, or whatever? If Izzie wants to go behind you, let her (hopefully you will have judged the distance so this is without growling) - good news for you if she thinks you'll help protect her. If she chooses to do a down, let her - it's her way of 'talking' to the other dog, and she will naturally be dealing with things. And yes, if you have helpful friends, especially if they have dogs who are not reactive, meet up with them too. Sounds as if your sister's dogs are pretty non-reactive. And just think about things as you are out and about - if on lead for example, just pass the lead from one handd to the other behind your back swaps the side of you she is walking on, so Izzie has you between her and other dogs - but try your best to make sure her comfort zone is kept. Not sure if you've had Izzie from a young age, but if you have, I am sure that the fact that she is a generally loved family pet will mean that she will soon overcome her fears. Don't you go worrying yourself, just come on her and have a chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collies r best Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Thanks so much for all the advice Believe it or not we had a slight breakthrough last night. We were mucking out the horses field when Archie, [izzies best friend whom she growled at in the morning]came past with his owners. Iz was so pleased to see him so he came in the field and they had a good play. So obviously on her own 'territory' shes fine, its just being out and about that triggers it. At least i know my lovely girl is still in there [daft i know but i was worried ]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReikiAnge Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 That's great news At least i know my lovely girl is still in there [daft i know but i was worried ]. It's not daft, I know how you feel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collies r best Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Just thought i'd give a bit of an update. Mixed sucess really, Izzie is petrified of springer spaniels so much that she growls like hell while trying to find an escape route and is very unhappy being walked in the area where she got scared.On a better note she has unexpectedly met two dogs seperately and tried playing with them [she was onlead both times as well]. One was a black cocker being walked by a lovely lad of about 15yrs old, i explained that i didnt know how Izzie would react and he very sensibly walked by us and Iz loved his dog. We left it on good terms and this lad said anytime we see him to go over so that her confidence is boosted. What a smashing lad. If Iz sees a dog in the distance she worries about it and starts getting panicky but it seems if we meet them unexpectedly she forgets her fear, I take no chances though and shes kept onlead when other dogs are around as i think she may bolt if she could. But any progress this early is good so i'm not dwelling on the bad bits [much ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mop Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 It is very little steps that will get her there in the end not big leaps forward. I often cried when I had a breakthrough with Gracie but all the work paid off. Well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collies r best Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Izzies getting better and better She occasionally gets nervous but has improved a lot. Last week we met a lovely retriever called Harvey and they had fantastic time offlead playing chase. If other dogs are around i make sure Iz is 100% happy with them before she goes off lead if not she stays onlead. Any signs of a problem i call her back and we head off a different way as if that was the original plan. That way if she gets worried things still end on a fairly good note before panic sets in.So much of this is reading yours dogs body language isnt it. thanks for advice you all gave, it seemed such a massive thing at the time and you really helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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