Nuetering

[Dobbo]

Hi all, hope all is well with you and your canine friends. Some of you may remember me from the back end of last year when we nearly had our dog, Bouncer seized as being type.Unfortunately, recently Bouncer has developed some very serious dog aggression isues and has badly attacked 4 dogs within the last two weeks, the worst this evening when he almost killed a westie whom he has previously played with and got on well together. I have tried all of the recommended approaches and the final one to consider now is castration. To be completely honest if I were alone I think I would have to consider having him pts as he has become very unpredictable. To make matters worse the dog in question today belongs to a serving police officer. As a final approach what are your thoughts on the likely impact of having him "done"? Is it a fair approach as I feel that to consider this and then it to have no or little effect will have acheived nothing. The fun has gon eout of exercising him now as it becomes a tense nervous atmosphere when other dogs are around and muzzling him seems very draconian and offers no real prospect of any quality free time. It may well be that this police officer makes an official complaint and matters are taken out of my hands as due to the nature of the attack I imagine that a destruction order would be inevitable. Any advice most welcome as although hes has never shown any siogns of human aggression, alarm bells are ringing and I have two lovely daughters to consider. Any advice and feedback most welcome Dobbo.

[Rumpole]

bullbreeds and particularly staffies and their crosses often do not like other dogs they were bred to fight other dogs and it can be instinctive to fight other dogs especially those of the same sex that does not mean they will in any way be unpredictable with people in fact usually quite the opposite as only people friendly dogs were bred from (no use throwing a dog into a fight and not being able to get in to get it out) staffies are one of only two breeds recommended to live in a household with children by the kc so although scary when they fight i doubt that you have anything to worry about with the family.

 

was he on lead at the time of these attacks as sometimes with bullbreeds they get excited and over the top and then before they know it its all gone too far it is not in their make up to give up or back down when challenged by another dog. if you have a dog aggressive dog then it is your responsibility to keep both him and other dogs safe by either keeping on lead or muzzling him (which is not great but not as draconian as death) and also to learn how to split a fight up with minimum fuss or injury caused to either animal

ie if you hit a bull breed or inflict pain on it whilst its biting it will not let go it will bite harder, there are methods to seperate dogs that every bull breed owner should learn preferably before getting one.

 

as for neutering there are no guarantees that it will solve the problem especially with a breed of dog for whom it is just as instinctive to fight as it is for a collie to round things up

 

id need to know more details of the incidents and circumstances to assist but feel free to ring and we can see if we can help or advise further

[alisonsophieb]

Being an owner of bull breeds for the past 15 years from time to time I have had incidences break out, always in the home never involving another’s dog.

 

Thankfully possibly through more luck than judgement (never through beating a dog) I have always managed to separated quickly and without injury but I would be interested to know the correct way of separating 2 dogs. I have found myself having one dog in a girth lock whilst more or less having a one sided conversation asking it to let go.

 

I have learn to call time out much sooner as very quickly play can turn into temper, also to turn off the TV and instead study / understand my dogs I am pretty confident now that I know what mine are thinking before they do. Albeit advise is always very much appreciated (I have 5 bull breeds)

 

[Rumpole]

always have a soft collar on your dog

slip you hand under the collar palm up,

grip the collar making a fist, still in a fist turn your hand over thus tightening the collar and restricting the airways and push dog into what he is biting cutting off air through the nose and wait a few seconds and your dogs natural reactions will make him gasp as soon as that happens pull him clear

this method also stops him shaking and causing more damage

[celeste]

I know exactly how your feeling, one of my Staffords ( Daisy) suddenly became very aggressive with small dogs she had previously played with and now can't be trusted round small dogs although she remains fine with big dogs.

Castration is certainly an option, but it isn't the cure all that some would have you believe, without knowing the circumstances in which he attacked it's impossible to know why, in the case of fear provoked aggression castration can make matters worse, but if he is being aggressive to other males then it just may work, you can go to your vet and ask for chemical castration for a month and that should give you a good idea whether the snip will work. As to using a muzzle, well, why not ? I have used one with Daisy, I don't now because I improved her obedience and now she returns to me to have her lead put on if another dog appears, but it means I must always be very aware of other dogs and I put her on a lead if we are on a path where I can't see far enough ahead, muzzles aren't that bad once they get used to them, if you have a scout about on the internet there are loads of diffrent designs, some are made of soft leather and are very light and some look like they are out of a horror film, if you introduce the muzzle right your dog won't mind one little bit, he can still potter about and do his own thing, he just won't be able to molocate other dogs, it's a win win situation . As has been said unfortunatly some dogs do still have that "gameness" in them, Daisy was great mates with my friends JRT's and then one day she just went for them, we have tried to re-introduce them and she will be ok for about 5 mins and then she just gets that look, goes very still, and bam, she goes for them, no growling or snarling at all, luckily she is very small and will now listen to me when I tell her to stop, but she remains very people friendly, she adores everyone, espescially kids, most of the kids in our village know her and it's not unusual for her to have 7 or 8 of them crowding round to be " Daisy'ed" so it dosn't always follow that because a dog is aggressive to other dogs they will then start on people

[EGAR]

Shouldn't this be in Training instead of the BSL section?

[Rumpole]

yes .

done

[EGAR]

There are ALOT of factors which decide whether or not a dog shows dog aggression and that is not just the case in Bull Breeds.

 

I have a few questions:

 

How old is your dog?

 

What are you feeding him on? I am especially interested in the protein %

 

How old was he when you got him?

 

Has he met dogs every day of his life?

 

What happened before and during the very first attack on another dog?

 

Has he ever been attacked before?

 

Do you walk him on a collar or harness?

 

What is his general obedience like and does it differ when he is outside the house?

 

Has he recently been vaccinated? And if yes with what vaccine?

 

And finally: has he both testicles descended?

Edited March 11, 2008 by EGAR

[Dobbo]

Hi all, thanks for advice and feedback. All instances have been where both dogs, mine and other been off lead. And always when his female Rottie friend present. Not sure if this factor however as other males approach and he does not go into manic protective/territorial mode. Thing is she does her nut and attacks Bouncer when he kicks off with other dog. Very frighteneing to watch tonight, was well and truly locked onto westie by throat, then started shaking as per usual. Poor westie was only just gurgling, bloke (police officer was crying), blood all over both dogs. Mate, (rotties owner) helped get my dog off. Very strange in that 5 mins earlier, golden retriever came along growling and barking and my dog totally ignored it, wasn't remotely interested.Then wallop, piled into westie who had done nothing, didnt even have toy nearby to get all funny about. Very unpredictable and unstable, have tried allsorts to reinforce my position as pack leader, but still ultra aggressive in some cases. He was attacked at 9 months by huge male rottie and even though young, went ballsitic and had to prise him off dogs head which resulet in owner making complaint against me and dog. Was subsequently discovered that rottie had attacked 3 or 4 dogs in days beofre Bouncer, and someomne suggested that this may be cause of aggression, but surely he wouldn't play with best mate rottie if that was case. Choc lab at park doesn't get on with dogs on leads and has had him 3 times when he's been on lead and maybe cause of pre-emptive strikes, as different choc lab turned up last week and he ran 200 yds and piled into it thinking it was his old adversary.Another friend at park has jack russel and yorkie, two most yappy and aggressive dogs iv'e come across and they always snap and snarl at Bouncer and hes has never batted an eyelid. Very unsure of where to go next other than vet, would't dare take him to training classes in case of kick off again. To be honest his actions tonight were indefensible and wouldn't be at all surprised if copper makes complaint and goes the whole hog. Have told wife to expect knock on door from police, probably wont even involve dog warden again.As for people has never once displayed any aggressive tendencies whatsoever towards humans, not food aggressive, not toy or territory aggressive, just loves people and loves a fuss. As per Celestes post, on a couple of occasions hes has done as her dog and gone almost ridig and then bang, no growl or warning, just wallop.Am at a total loss what to do, feedback and advice most welcome. Am currently waiting for 5 figure cheque to arrive ref out of court settlement from former employer for sacking me for nothing, will be making donation to funds and would like details of payment methods please as being unemployable, bank wont let me have card or cheque book. Thanks again Dobbo.

[ReikiAnge]

I wouldn't want to offer any behavioural advice but must ask if you have taken him to the vets to have him checked over since the start of these attacks? To attack four dogs in two weeks without a previous history of aggression (from how I'm reading your post) would make me want to look at what was causing this and to rule things out.

 

Not that I am saying for one moment this is the case for Bouncer, but I have heard of brain tumours, for example, causing sudden aggression. I would also be looking to get my dog's thyroid tested (properly - I gather not all vets know how to do this correctly) as I understand thyroid problems can cause aggression in dogs. In fact I recall a dog who did suddenly become aggressive around other dogs and he was castrated which didn't help a jot but it did turn out he had thyroid problems, which were correctly identified and treated and vastly improved things (again I'm not saying this is what it is as I'm not a vet).

 

I think you must start muzzling him when outside of the house - it may not appeal to you but I don't see any safe alternative at the present time.

 

Sorry you are going through this - and I really hope the other dogs are all ok

[Rudi]

Your dog won't come to harm by being neutered, especially if he's already reached puberty. Neutering will not necessarily do anything about his aggression, and even if it does, it can take some weeks, if not months for the full effects to be seen. You would need to engage in some sort of training to maximise the chances of successfully managing him. I think you do need to muzzle him, he's obviously had some bad experiences in the past which you can't change, but you can do something about him hurting another dog. There is an injection, Tardaq, or something which mimics the effects of neutering, perhaps you could try that if you are unsure about neutering.

[Dobbo]

EGAR, as per your questions, answers as follows: Bouncer was 2 in early February,we feed him on pedigree with mixer and sardines with sunflower oil as he has a dry coat, he has treats of pigs ears 2 or 3 times a week. He was about 12 weeks when we got him and was socialied with other dogs from the first time he was allowed out.He is walked on a short chain with a leather collar, and as below was attcked by a huge male rottie when 9 months old. Is generally fit and well, had ear infection about a month ago, all cleared up now, no recent vaccinations. Generally his obedience is fine, will recall well, wil sit and stay on command, always sits to cross road, will retrieve balls and toys and doesnt jump up much, not destructive at all around house, no damage at all, tends to be better behave if anything when outside, likes to pinch socks of radiators at home and run off with them. Exercise wise, gets 2 hours a day, in morning 15 minute walk to beach, half hour with ball or rope toy, hard runnig jumping etc, drinks at fountain and then 15-20 stroll back. Evening same or good hours worth of runnig round park with 2 yr old rottie bitch with ball etc, plus walks to shop for paper etc, im on dole so i've got loads of time on my hands at the moment.Both testicles fully descended, vet gave him once over ref ear infection and reckons hes in superb condition, ideal weight for his height, all the usual; boxes ticked etc etc. My brother had 2 staffy bitches, one of which developed sudden aggrresion and went on to have major epilepsy, reuslt of which was that she passed way one night after a really bad episode so have to factor that in aswell I imagine.

[celeste]

My own feeling on this is that his aggression has gotten to the stage that you really need some professional advice, in the mean time using a muzzle is the sensible way to go, concidering you can illiminate any chance of him causing further damage with this one simple thing it would be daft not to use one, if the authorities do come calling it would also demonstrate that you were taking steps to make sure it didn't happen again and would go better for you both if any legal procedings were to take place. It might be a good idea to offer to pay for any vet bills that the Westie had after the attack, it just helps to prove you are being responsible and might go a bit of the way to mend any bad feeling the attack has caused with the Westies owner

[Dobbo]

Think muzzle is a must have at the moment Celeste. Am waiting for a chequet to arrive at which point I intend to have Bouncer assesed by Roger Mugford for possible type issues and general behavioural issues. Am unemployed at moment so as for paying vets bills is currently a no go ( long story but DWP have cocked up on a grand scale and subsequently my benefit has been reduced to less than min amount due to miscalculation). Will offer to pay for bills etc when cheque arrives hopefully soon. Any suggestions as to other preventative rather than responsive measures I could enforce?

[celeste]

What I did with Daisy was improved her wait ( or stay) command, I really went to town with this one, every time we went out she had a wee training session at the beginning and end of the walk to the point that she now has "wait" as her default behaviour which she will do now if she see's a dog coming and then I ask her to return to me, I also beefed up her self control by doing the "leave it" command, you can start off by just walking him past a toy or food treat he would like ( on lead) but have a really tasty treat for him in your other hand, I find that if you can do this without tugging on his lead ( just give the lead a wee shake to get his attention instead) or raising your voice, the finished excersise is much more effective, a dogs hearing is unbelievably good so there's no reason to shout unless he is at a distance and if you give quiet commands he has to pay more attention to you, so you walk him past the desired object and if he even glances at it, say his name and "leave" and as soon as he looks at you give him the treat, but don't allow him to then get the object, either repeat the excercise or pick it up and ask for a sit and then give it to him, once he is reliable on this stage you can progress to throwing a toy or treat and asking him to leave, just throw it a wee bit away at first and as he gets better make it more and more exciting so he gets to practise self control when he is excited, hopefully this should give you a bit of control over him when he clicks into attack mode. It can be very difficult to snap them out of attack mode as they are getting a big internal pay off, lots of chemicals are being released in their brains that feels very good to them, possibly like the feeling we would have going on a rollercoaster ( if you like rollercoasters)so it can be hard to break through that emotion, the best way is to try and prevent him getting to that point in the first place, there is also a product on the market called a Pet Corrector, it costs under a tenner and is a canister of compressed gas which releases a very loud hiss, you could carry one with you out on walks just in case he does grab another dog, it's sold by Company of Animals which is Roger Mugfords company so you can be sure it will be kind and effective, hope this helps a wee bit and good luck with seeing Roger, he's one of the top behaviourists in the world so you'll be in very good hands.